Intro
The Dice Society is back on! It's been a year since we last talked, and a lot has happened since then: the release of Draw Steel, Jams of the Timescape, You Meet in an Ambush, Hooked on Crafting and him writing for the Encounters book.
I must apologize for my audio quality during the interview. Something got borked, and I didn't realize until well after we stopped recording. Thankfully I don't talk too often.
I'm Jon de Nor and this is Goblin Points.
Interview
Jon de Nor: Welcome back to Goblin Points, the Dice Society!
Caio Lente: Thanks for having me, Jon.
Jon de Nor: For first-time listeners or those who haven't listened to the previous time you were on, give us a short introduction of yourself, and maybe even what you're known for in the Draw Steel community.
Caio Lente: If you don't know me, my name is Caio. I'm "The Dice Society" online. I'm a computer scientist from Brazil. Just a regular guy. But I fell in love with Draw Steel. And now I make a podcast. I have a YouTube channel where I talk about the game as well. I wrote a small adventure for Draw Steel. I just finished a crowdfunder or a supplement for Draw Steel. So maybe, yeah, maybe people know me from one of...for one of those things.
Jon de Nor: The reason I had you on last year, it was the one-year anniversary of your podcast. And now it's the second anniversary of your podcast. How do you feel the last year's been going as a Draw Steel podcaster?
Caio Lente: Wow. So much stuff has changed, and it's hard to, like, remember what it was like a year ago. So last year the game was still in development, like, earnest development. It came out...end of August?
Jon de Nor: End of July. (laughter)
Caio Lente: End of — the game came out end of July?
Jon de Nor: 31st of July, I think.
Caio Lente: (laughter) Wow,, okay, okay. Time is a weird soup. But yeah, we were still a bunch of months away, and, like, the community I was talking to were mainly other, like, hardcore Draw Steel people who were following development and interested in, like, what the game was going to be. And now, it's completely different. My review of Draw Steel got like a bunch of views from people outside of the community. And that was my first, exposure to, like, new people.
And now that the game is out, everybody's talking about the game. There's a bunch of interest online. People are joining the community all the time. And I think that's the biggest difference. It's, like, people now have the game and they play the game. So, I'm trying to, in the podcast, I'm trying to talk a little bit more about...like, having unscripted segments where I talk about my opinions, because now the game is yours, right? It's everyone's. So I can share more about what I think than about what's coming to Draw Steel.
Jon de Nor: Yeah, I've noticed that myself too, with my news episode, that it's less about what's coming. And for me, it's transitioned into the stuff that's coming out of the community instead, where there's always new, fresh stuff coming in. We also have to talk about a few of the things that you've been doing apart from the podcast, because you started doing more videos, and specifically the review and also the "How to Draw Steel" series. So what's the inspiration behind, specifically "How to Draw Steel" videos?
Caio Lente: I knew people were going to need a tutorial for Draw Steel. It's not a simple game by any stretch of the imagination. Like, we.
Jon de Nor: (laughter) No, no.
Caio Lente: Like, we were there since the beginning, so we kind of know what the game was like even before it came out. But people coming into the game, you kind of need, at least, an entry point. There's — of course, there's the Delian Tomb adventure, which is the "Start Here" adventure, and many people start there. But some people learn better by watching someone — they just need a refresher where they're not necessarily, like, wanting to read the whole rulebook again.
And I wanted to have this as a reference for people to come and watch whenever they needed. I wanted to post like an episode a month, but that hasn't happened. But it's almost done. I think it's going to be just five chapters, so...I'm writing the fourth one at the moment, and...and yeah, that was basically my goal. I wanted to have an easy reference online for people who wanted to to start playing the game.
Jon de Nor: And speaking of starting to play the game, you also wrote an adventure called You Meet in an Ambush, which also works as an introduction to kind of all the different — the main parts of Draw Steel.
Caio Lente: MCDM has the "conventure", right, which is which is a short four-hour adventure that you can...that a person who already knows how to play Draw Steel can direct for new people in conventions and game stores, all that stuff. I do think the conventure — first of all, I wrote You Meet in an Ambush before the conventure.
I still think the conventure — I have run it, and I think it's...it's very Draw Steel, in the sense that...I think you have a negotiation with a wode elf to cross a wode or something. It's really — and you're carrying a wagon full of medicine to cure a disease in a town. And my goal with You Meet in an Ambush is to give people a hot start, right? So — it's in the name.
Jon de Nor: (laughter)
Caio Lente: I'm really happy with the name because it says what it, what it is. But also, also something that you can use in any setting that works in D&D, right? Just like the Delian Tomb. It's like, it's a regular dungeon!...but for Draw Steel. This is, you meet in a tavern!...for Draw Steel. Like if in D&D, you would meet in a tavern, and chit-chat, and then, something happens, right? As does — as it happens in the Delian Tomb, right? Someone comes in with a quest. But in You Meet in an Ambush, it's kind of reversed? You're waiting for the questgiver, and the questgiver is ambushing you.
So it's a twist on something that's very cliche in D&D, but it's a twist that introduces, like, how Draw Steel can work, because after the fight, you have at least a montage and a negotiation, right? You can have a second combat, you can have other stuff. It has a little bit of branching at the end, but it's supposed to be, like, four hours, really quick, easy combat for people who are not used to the rules.
But, yeah, that was the goal. And it's not a coincidence that I'm working on, like, "How to Draw Steel" and You Meet in an Ambush, right? I'm thinking about people coming into the game. I want them to have, like, all the tools they need to to actually play.
Jon de Nor: In your quest to aid people with playing, I guess, you also did Hooked on Crafting, as you mentioned, which is a rather big, I think, supplement that you're working on right now.
Caio Lente: Yeah, Hooked on Crafting is a little different. It's not for new players. It's something I actually felt was lacking in the core rules, right?
Jon de Nor: Same. Yeah.
Caio Lente: Yeah. Because if you're listening to this and you're not aware, basically every magic item, every treasure in Draw Steel, you can craft it. And the game gives you, like, how many project points you need, which which is, like...it basically converts to roughly how many downtimes you need to craft the thing. You roll every downtime, and you subtract that from the points, so it's roughly how many downtimes you need.
But it also gives you a crafting prerequisite, which is something the Director needs to either give to you or tell you where it is. So, for instance, I know the the first one I wrote was for the black ash darts. You need three vials of black ash. So either the players come to the Director and are like, where can I find three vials of black ash? Or these vials show up in an adventure, right? You kill a goblin, and the goblin drops three vials of black ash. And maybe the recipe, right? Some other stuff.
What I thought was, well, I like having monsters drop interesting prerequisites. That's all good and dandy. But if my players actually read the book and they're like, "I want to craft this," I wouldn't want the prerequisite to just drop from the next monster. That would feel, I don't know, a little, (laughter) like, cheesy.
Jon de Nor: (laughter) Yeah, yeah.
Caio Lente: So how about giving Directors a short quest hook that they can give to players? Like, well, if you want these, you might want to go to Capital and talk to this professor who is in charge of the black ash in the College of Black Ash, I think. No. What's the name of the college again?
Jon de Nor: (laughter) I think it is called the College of Black Ash.
Caio Lente: College of black Ash, right?
Jon de Nor: Yeah!
Caio Lente: So that's the person in charge. And I give the Director a short negotiation, right? Just the, like, the motivations and pitfalls of this professor. And it's easily reskinnable, right? You can just ignore everything, of course, you can just do your own quest. But it's something to give you inspiration, right? Okay, so maybe I'm not going to do this in Capital, but have a professor somewhere who works with black ash, right?
And it's echelon-appropriate. So the NPC is roughly the characters' level at that point. So you can just deploy that as...you don't need to think about, "Well, what kind of quest should I give my players to go get this?" Like, I do have the hook, and then I can think about the adventure once they actually want to act on this hook.
So yeah, it's a little different. It's...but I'm really excited about this, because it's...there's almost no mechanics there, right? It's just the little, well, what are the interests — er, the motivations and pitfalls. If it's a combat, like, what are the monsters that would show up in this combat? If it's a montage, like, what kinds of challenges would happen in this montage? So it's really quick. It's really easy. And it's just a punch of inspiration, right?
Jon de Nor: (laughter) I like that.
Caio Lente: Yeah. It's — because I like that kind of stuff, right? I, like, when I need something, I have, I have it's a book. It's The Tome of Adventure Design, I think. It's a book that just has, like, loads of words in the margins. It gives you like, suggestions for dungeons and quests and everything, but it has, like, words on the margins that are just there to spark your creativity. And I love those, I love those. And it's like, all of a sudden, you read the margin and it's like, "brain in a jar". I'm like, "Oh, my God, how can I, how can I put a brain in a jar and have this make sense?"
So that's the goal of Hooked on Crafting. And the goal is to have it release on Q3 this year. I'm writing the hooks, I'm getting the hooks from a bunch of people that are in the Draw Steel community — like you, Jon! (laughter) Like yourself! And I'm commissioning the art. I'm getting — the cover is by Dojikaan, the art is by Inge, the hooks are all from Draw Steel creators, and the layout is by Jonas Tintenseher, which is also from the community.
I really wanted this book...like, I really — when I thought about this, like having, 200 hooks — it's something like 200 — having 200 hooks, like, I can outsource a few of these, and then have the art by someone, and it's like it's a big collaboration by the community, right? It's not really a Dice Society project, like You Meet in an Ambush is. I really wanted to bring all the people in and have something where everybody can work together. It's really fun! It's really fun. I hope everything goes according to plan because stuff always happens. But yeah.
Jon de Nor: (laughter) I'm really looking forward to Hooked on Crafting. Mostly because, having — getting that punch of inspiration is...that's usually what I need. I need that punch to kind of get going. I really feel like the, I felt the struggle of starting from scratch, and some of the prerequisites in the core rules are so...they're not covered anywhere else. Like, you get this thing and it's like, where would I even find that? You're giving me nothing! (laughter)
Caio Lente: Exactly. Like, where is this? Yeah. But I want to have some interesting stuff for people to add to their games.
Jon de Nor: I also have to ask about — and this is a bit inside baseball, I guess — Jams of the Timescape, which which we do in collaboration, you and me. I think it was you who proposed the idea to me, wasn't it?
Caio Lente: I think it was. I think it was. I don't remember anymore. I think it was. I think we were talking about like something for the community, and I think I suggested the jam format, at least.
Jon de Nor: That sounds about right, because when I have ideas for the community, they're really outrageous. And I should be talked down from doing them. (laughter)
Caio Lente: Like, do you want to ship stuff all over the world right now, Jon? I mean...sure.
Jon de Nor: (laughter) Where did your inspiration for the jam come from when you suggested it initially?
Caio Lente: Yeah, I...do not remember where it came from, at all. I do remember I was getting into, like...I remember publishing You Meet in an Ambush on itch. And itch hosts these jams all the time, all the time. There's a tab for jams, like, in the homepage. And I had...I think I participated in a jam at some point in the past. Oh, it was for DriveThruRPG. They had a jam where you had to, like, make a little game — like a little RPG system, an original RPG system — that had the theme...I remember this was the the first edition of their...I forget the name of the thing, actually. But it was something, it was an event to get people started, like, making stuff for DriveThruRPG. It's PocketQuest.
Jon de Nor: Oh!
Caio Lente: Yeah. And it had to — the theme had to be, like, summer camp. And I never went to summer camp. (laughter) But I thought it was fun, right? So I joined, and it was really cool, because you have this, like, timeframe to make something, and it can't be perfect because the timeframe is always too short. I think my thing turned out, like, ten pages or something. It's like a really short 2d6 system.
And this was a while ago, but I was like, you know what? We should do something like this for Draw Steel, because there's a lot of homebrew going on, like a lot of people are making homebrew. How about we get these people together and have them homebrew at the same time, like, same theme? And I was like, this could work, this could work. So I saw the jams on on itch, and I remembered PocketQuest, and I was like, well, maybe this could work. I think that's where it came from.
Jon de Nor: And as we're recording this, it's the day before we're doing the the reveal of our second volume of Jams of the Timescape.
Caio Lente: And I can say that some people have already guessed. Not because of us!
Jon de Nor: Yeah, yeah. Not in a small way, because Matt basically announced it on his stream.
Caio Lente: Yes, exactly, right? I mean, sometimes, sometimes it happens.
Jon de Nor: Through the fantastic support we've gotten from MCDM...
Caio Lente: Yes, truly.
Jon de Nor: They've agreed to to open one of their usually closed posts on Patreon specifically for the jam. And when I spoke with Geoff, I originally asked for just, like, the two weeks that we're doing submissions, but I don't blame them for just doing it immediately once they got around to it. Which is fine! (laughter) But it kind of showed our hand.
Caio Lente: Everybody was like, well, is this a coincidence?
Jon de Nor: (laughter) I've also gotten some questions from my patrons, who can submit questions for my guests. So the first one out is, what's your favorite TTRPG besides Draw Steel? Or your favorites, maybe?
Caio Lente: My favorite TTRPG besides Draw Steel? I don't know, there are a few tied at the top, right? D&D? I really like D&D. I still, like...
Jon de Nor: (gasp) Controversial! (laughter)
Caio Lente: Yeah, I do, I do, I do! It's, like, the whole thing. It's the big one. I still like it. I'm not playing any D&D at the moment, for a while, right? But I still have fond memories. Like, I don't have fond memories of missing turns, but I do...there's something about the nostalgia about, like, fireballs, and wizards, and paladins, all that stuff. So yeah, it's...I think it's, maybe it's not second right now, but it's close.
I've been playing a lot of Daggerheart. I'm not sure. I don't think that's second place. Maybe it's tied with D&D. I really, really liked Mothership. Because I'm not really a big fan of horror movies, but I found out that I love putting my players through a horror movie!
Jon de Nor: (laughter)
Caio Lente: And it's one of those old-school games. I'm not usually a big fan of old-school, like, stuff like Shadowdark and those, that are really, really heavily inspired by old school D&D. But those like, rules-light horror games where it's quick, where it's deadly, where you have to, like, think on your feet, where you don't have a lot of combat abilities, you need to, like, really engage with the fiction...I really enjoyed Mothership.
I don't know, I don't know what my second-favorite is. Mm...there's a big list here that I...yeah, I would have to say that, today, maybe it's Mothership. Yeah, that's that's my final answer.
Jon de Nor: That's a good pick. I'm a big fan of Mothership myself. And now onto something more closer to home, I guess. I've gotten the question, where do you see the Draw Steel creators community going in the next year? And what do you think are going to be the biggest obstacles to creators in the Draw Steel community?
Caio Lente: This is a tough one, so I'm not usually very good at futurology. (laughter) I'm not very good at predicting the future. If I had to guess, where do I see the Draw Steel community in a year? And we'll — we should do this interview every year, so we have, like, answers to last year's.
Jon de Nor: (laughter)
Caio Lente: Like, call me out next year on the shit I said. I think it's going to get more professional, maybe? I think, because right now, the game is very fresh, right? So, everybody has a different idea of how the game is being used. Many people have received the game in the mail, but haven't...not a lot of people have played it.
Jon de Nor: Right. Yeah.
Caio Lente: So, once we start getting more players into the game...Matt [Colville] always says that, like, next year, a lot of, way more players are going to be interacting with the game. So if this in fact happens, I think we're going to see bigger crowdfunders maybe, right? More ambitious crowdfunders, setting books. I remember Nomas, the crowdfunder from Shuv and...
Jon de Nor: Sam McGurran.
Caio Lente: Sam McGurran. They didn't fund, unfortunately. But I think this is just because the game is very new, and...and even the Vampire, which funded, it was very close, so...
Jon de Nor: Yeah.
Caio Lente: Like, last-day close. And it's because people are still getting used to Orden and the default classes, right? Once people get more used to them and a little bored of the basic, then I think we're going to start seeing some juicier crowdfunders. And about like — what's the question? Obstacles?
Jon de Nor: Yeah, in the — obstacles to creators in the community.
Caio Lente: I don't know. I do not know. This is hard. Maybe MCDM itself is an obstacle, because MCDM is really good at checking the pulse of the community and seeing what the community needs and wants. And they might make stuff that third-party creators are wanting to make.
Jon de Nor: Yeah.
Caio Lente: Even classes, right? We already have a little bit of a a clash with MCDM working on the Acolyte and a third party creator — I don't remember who. Pisocratic Press? I don't know — the Vessel.
Jon de Nor: Wasn't it...was it ChaoticGoodra, maybe? Or Mattelonian?
Caio Lente: Maybe. (laughter) Vessel...
Jon de Nor: (laughter) Furious typing!
Caio Lente: Furious typing. Yes. Font of Victories is the author on Backerkit? Yeah, so, maybe these clashes could be an obstacle. I see that the Draw Steel community of creators is, like, really active. Really active. Like, we've had more than ten crowdfunders, I think more than a dozen crowdfunders. And the game's been out for six months, I think? It's crazy, it's crazy. Some — a few started before the game was out. So I think there might be the risk of a mismatch of, like, how many people are actually using all of these, all of these homebrew creations. And how many people want to make these homebrew creations, right?
I don't know, I don't know, it depends on how fast the community grows, right? Because what we see right now, and I don't think — I even wrote about this on my blog — is you roughly get the same amount of people on every crowdfunder, same amount of backers. It's from 100 to 300 people. It's probably the same, the same people, on every crowdfund.
Jon de Nor: That's my suspicion too. There's a lot of overlap between all of these crowdfunders.
Caio Lente: I think so. The question is, is this number going to grow? How is MCDM going to advertise these crowdfunders? Because they do a good job, I think, of talking about it, in streams and on social media. It depends. It depends on, for instance, if podcasts like ours actually, like, draw more people into these projects, because we do talk a lot about community creations. But it's unclear to me how much we...how much of an impact we have, right, in the sense of new people hearing about these projects and actually going to back them.
Yeah, the future is uncertain. I think we're going to see...I think we're going to see bigger creations, bigger crowdfunders, I hope. And the obstacle is, are the, is the playerbase going to grow at the same rate as the creator base? And will MCDM release some stuff that other people are working on?
Jon de Nor: This also got me thinking. When MCDM releases the Acolyte, if they ever do — it's not in active development as of yet, at least — what will that do to the Vessel? (laughter)
Caio Lente: Exactly, exactly. I think there's an audience for everything. People — there's people who don't like the Elementalist, in the core rules. And I'm sure if someone releases a sort of twist on the Elementalist, some people are going to play the the Elementalist V2, version two, instead of the original.
And it depends. If the [Acolyte] is a master class, like the Summoner, right? It's a class that's hard for new players. Maybe the Vessel, which might not be as hard, could attract new players who want a warlock equivalent, but don't want a master class, right? I don't know. I honestly do not know.
Jon de Nor: I've gotten a couple of questions that are kind of for the both of us, actually.
Caio Lente: Mm, awesome.
Jon de Nor: But I'm going to leave the most of the answering to you. (laughter0 But the question is, what about Draw Steel made both of us think, "This is something I need to make a podcast about." And also start making videos, and I started working on Stawl, and you made "How to Draw Steel", and we also have done the Jams of the Timescape together...so what got you started, initially?
Caio Lente: I do have a very clear answer, fortunately, for this. Because I was deep into 5e at the time of the OGL stuff that happened, but I was already seeing the cracks. Because even though I was only playing 5e for...three years at that point, I think, I was playing twice a week, every week, right? I was DMing once a week and I was playing once a week. So I saw stuff from both sides of the DM screen, and like, missing, that kind of stuff, was already grinding my gears.
And after like engaging with 5e for so long, and, like, learning so much about DMing and learning so much about like, well, there are other games, let's see other games as well. Let's see if anything interests me. I started like getting this itch to like, design games, like getting into game design. That's why I joined PocketQuest, right? Because it was just, create, like a short game system. And I was like, well, let me get my feet wet in game design, RPG design specifically.
And once the OGL thing hit, and Matt announced they were working on their own game...I was already a big fan of Strongholds and Followers, Kingdoms and Warfare. I had deployed these rules multiple times in my campaign and they were a huge success. I loved them. I was like, well — ooh, and there's Flee, Mortals! as well. I think they were already starting with the backer packets of Flee, Mortals! at that point of the OGL crisis.
Jon de Nor: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think August the year before.
Caio Lente: Yeah. And I was like, these monsters, they're so good. They're the best. And when Matt announced that they were going to start working on the MCDM RPG, at the time, and he was going to share all the details on his streams for free, I was like, okay, I can learn some game design here. And I was, like, religiously watching the streams to get every possible game design advice. Because — and it was not like me wanting to make my own game and wanting to learn specifically, it was just an interesting subject, right? I was like, I want to learn more, right? Let's watch this. And James also did a bunch of streams. It was very informative. All the posts on Patreon, all the videos on YouTube, "Designing the Game" started at that point as well.
And at some point I was like, I know everything there is to know about Draw Steel, right? And it wasn't, still — it wasn't called Draw Steel, but I was like, I'm learning so much. There's so much stuff. It's so cool. Like, look at them designing the Tactician. I remember the Tactician was something that blew my mind like, oh my God, you don't need to make a a shitty martial? A martial class could be good? What? This is insane!
And and I was like, I always...I was like, I've made three podcasts in the past. I've had like five blogs. I love sharing the stuff I know, and the stuff I learn, the stuff I like. So I was like, well, this is a great opportunity. Like, I'm going to watch the streams anyway. And I'm certain there's a bunch of people who are not going to watch the streams, or pay the Patreon. So I'm just going to summarize all the stuff I learned that month, and I'm going to make a podcast. And then Jon did it first.
Jon de Nor: (laughter)
Caio Lente: And I was like, okay, so I shouldn't do it because someone already did it. And then I sat on it and I was like, I can't not do it, so I'm going to do it. And I did it anyway. And it was good, it was good, because I met a lot of cool people, including Jon.
Jon de Nor: I remember basically being in the same spot, where I was watching in the Discord religiously, people coming in asking questions. And I kept thinking, I know all these answers, I just don't have a place where I can reference them. So I started making Goblin Points, mostly because I just need to unload this stuff somewhere. (laughter)
Caio Lente: Yeah, exactly. Like my wife was tired at that point of hearing me talk about Draw Steel. And I was like, I need to talk to someone! I'm not going to shut up about it. So I just made a podcast.
Jon de Nor: (laughter)
Caio Lente: And the videos came naturally afterwards. Once the Dice Society podcast had like an audience, right? Because people were listening to the podcasts, and I was really happy with it. And I was like, well, maybe, maybe I should do a couple of videos, because I know more people watch videos than listen to podcasts.
Jon de Nor: Yeah.
Caio Lente: And I was like, maybe I should do just — because at that point, the podcast was just news. I didn't have, I didn't want to put, like, advice about Draw Steel on the podcast. So I was like, well — and the first thing I did with a video was an actual play. I made a short adventure and I ran Aestus, Tamwin, and...
Jon de Nor: And me, wasn't it?
Caio Lente: And you! Yes, yes, and you. Yeah.
Jon de Nor: Yeah! (laughter) It's so long ago.
Caio Lente: So long, yeah. So we ran it and I was like, well, the system works. Posting a video, people watch it. Nobody watched it. But more than zero. And then I did, I made a Shadow on Forge Steel at that point as well, which had my face on it. I just went through building a character on Forge Steel. And then I did the first, like, video with me, which is just me, which was "How to Get Your Friends to Play Draw Steel".
Jon de Nor: Yes, yes. You'd just run it, at a game store, I think.
Caio Lente: Yeah. I had just run it at a game store and I was starting to write You Meet in an Ambush. So I was, like, really thinking about how to get new people into the game. And I was like, well, I need to share this because the people at the game store loved the game. One of the people who played with me, they had never played any RPG before.
Jon de Nor: Wow.
Caio Lente: Yeah. And she was with a couple of friends and they brought her in and we played and she was like, "This is really cool. I love this game." And I was like, "What if every time you did something, you had to roll a die to see if it worked?" And she was like, "Why would anyone do this? Why, why?" And I was like, "Well..."
That's when I thought, well, I need to, I need to make this video. And then I started having more ideas like how to Draw Steel, and I have a couple more ideas to record at some point. But yeah, it all came naturally of me wanting to share what I was learning from watching the devs.
Jon de Nor: To kind of answer the question for myself, I guess, I just remember some time, very early — I think it was in the, like, the first spring when they started working on the game. I wanted to build a tool for the game, because I had a lot of spare time at that moment. So I started working on something, even against Matt's public advice of don't, don't..."We've not finished designing stuff yet, so people shouldn't start making stuff for the game." Which was good advice!
Caio Lente: I remember you did a livestream.
Jon de Nor: Yeah, yeah, I livestreamed some of the development that I did. That was specifically for like a character builder that I never ended up doing any more work on interest. I pivoted and did a Discord bot instead.
Caio Lente: Disdiar, right?
Jon de Nor: Yes, yes. But I also, I did a bit of, a bunch of work on — or, "a bunch". I did some work at least on like an online tool for an early version of the game, and this was back when the weapons had weapon properties. So that's really, really early. And they scrapped the whole concept for the final game, which made me also scrap the project I was doing. At the time, it was even called "Inevitable" because the RPG was "the inevitable RPG" of MCDM. So I called the tool Inevitable.
But yeah, that's where Stawl came from originally. I wanted to build some tools. And what I ended up doing was the encounter builder. That's where it kind of started, and I've expanded from there.
Caio Lente: Yeah. And my wife uses it every...almost every week. And she told me specifically to thank you for the encounter builder in Stawl, because she loves it. And I use it too, I use the encounter builder. But now I'm running — when I run, I run on the Codex, so I usually just pick the monsters. But when I wasn't running on the Codex, I was using Stawl as well for this. And it's really good. It's really good.
Jon de Nor: Thank you. I mostly made it for running in person as a digital tool to use when running in person. I can't compete with the Codex in any...(laughter)
Caio Lente: Any — yeah. It's hard, what I said, right? MCDM just swoops in and just delivers a full VTT. But yeah, but I do love Stawl because it's so simple, it's so intuitive. And the interface is, ooh! The UI, lovely. And it's really useful for running when you're not running on the Codex, right? You can track Stamina, you can see all the abilities, you can track turns and Malice, everything. So it's perfect.
Jon de Nor: I wish I had a better offering for the players, but the fact is, Forge Steel is so good that I cant really compete!
Caio Lente: Yeah, usually, that's how I do it. When I'm a player, I build my character on Forge Steel. And when I'm running, I run with Stawl. And I think it's good that both tools have different — have overlapping functionality but different pluses, pros and cons, right?
Jon de Nor: I don't see myself as a competitor to Forge Steel. I feel like we're more like...I don't know, it's like a friendly game of football. It's like, yeah, we're both pulling in the same direction. We're doing it for the fun of the game, basically. (laughter)
Caio Lente: Yeah, I know, I know, 100%. Right.In a community as small as this, like having rivalries, and like "Oh, I'm competing with Forge Steel"? It's like, yes, there's 100 people using the tools.
Jon de Nor: (laughter)
Caio Lente: As we said, like, there's from 100 to 300 power users of Draw Steel.
Jon de Nor: Yeah, yeah.
Caio Lente: So, so yeah.
Jon de Nor: A follow up question from the same person, which is MrMattDollar, which we've both provided with some work, apparently. He designed the logo for Stawl for me, specifically, he asks, how does it feel being community leaders in the space? If you say so!
Caio Lente: Yes, I do have the Lead skill, I think, somewhere in my character sheet. If that's what you mean.
Jon de Nor: And he says, particularly in regards to supporting and empowering creators. As a creator who has worked with both of us, he wants to express his gratitude with the effort we have taken providing visibility for creators in the community and their work through our podcasts. So, yeah, how does it feel to be, a community leader?
Caio Lente: I don't remember accepting that title. (laughter) Of community leader.
Jon de Nor: Ditto! (laughter)
Caio Lente: But, well, let's see. If we take his —
Jon de Nor: Well, you're more of a leader than me, though, because —
Caio Lente: I don't know that I am, really! But...
Jon de Nor: I — don't you have a bigger YouTube channel? (laughter)
Caio Lente: I do have a bigger YouTube channel, but is that the — is that the metric?
Jon de Nor: I don't — I don't know, I don't know.
Caio Lente: I don't know! You're making the tool everybody uses. I don't — please, I don't know. Alright, let's...let's take the question at face value.
Jon de Nor: Sure, sure.
Jon de Nor: If we are community leaders, well, how does it feel? Feels awesome.
Jon de Nor: (laughter)
Caio Lente: I want a salary.
Jon de Nor: (laughter)
Caio Lente: No. Jokes aside, highlighting creations from the community is, like, the least I feel like I can do. And and I'm sure Jon feels similarly.
Jon de Nor: Mm, ditto.
Caio Lente: We are just — with both our podcasts...Jon does the interviews which are really, really good. And every time someone comes to me and like, "Do you do interviews? Can you interview me?" I'm like, please go to Jon. He does all the interviews and they're great. So — I think the interviews are more — highlight the community even more.
But yeah, talking about the creations is...it comes back to the original goal for the podcast. People who can't be on the Discord, right, reading all the messages or watch the streams or pay the Patreon...I want those people to still feel like they're part of the community. So yeah, part of that job is sharing the news, but also talking about what people from the community are doing, right?
And I think there's no RPG without a healthy amount of homebrewing and people making their own tweaks and creating their own products and sharing their work, especially with a game with such a generous, open license like Draw Steel, right? People feel, like, really safe making homebrew stuff for it.
So yeah, I'm really happy that people feel like this is a good...it pays off. Because sometimes I wonder, like, doesn't every listener already know about these things? And sometimes, no, they don't! So it's good. It's good to to see that people get some value out of it. It's really wonderful.
Jon de Nor: Just the other day I did a livestream, which I'm hoping is going to be like a monthly occurrence, where I highlighted some of the creations from the community in the past month. And I had someone respond to the post on Bluesky who asked, "Oh, how — are there things being made for Draw Steel?" And I'm like — yes! (laughter)
Caio Lente: Yes! Yes, have you ever heard of Goblin Points? The number one Draw Steel podcast? Yeah.
Jon de Nor: (laughter) I don't even think that's true! But —
Caio Lente: I don't know!
Jon de Nor: I honestly don't keep track of how many listeners I have, mostly because I don't...I don't really care. (laughter)
Caio Lente: Yeah, me neither. Honestly, I do not care. Most of my — I get views on YouTube. I think my channel is good on YouTube. But you know how YouTube retention is. Like, most of the views are like 30 seconds long. So, checking stuff on like, Spotify and other, like, podcast apps. It's 100 to 300 people. So it's the hardcores. It's the hardcores.
Jon de Nor: It's the same 300 people that's crowdfunding everything!
Caio Lente: Yeah, it's the same 300 people, yeah! We need to get those 300 people together in a room and, like, play Draw Steel. (laughter)
Jon de Nor: (laughter) That post on Blueky wondering about whether stuff was being made for Draw Steel kind of made me realize that Goblin Points is still very much necessary in the way that I think about it, which is, I want more people to get...to be aware of all the stuff that's being created in the community. I try to pay as close attention as I can to all the stuff that's being published and released every month, and having someone just show up and say, "Is there anything at all?" (laughter)
Caio Lente: Is there anything? Yes, there is! Yeah.
Jon de Nor: Kind of validates my whole effort that, okay, someone needs to do this. And I think it's...I think it's me! (laughter)
Caio Lente: Yeah, it is. It is.
Jon de Nor: I've gotten a question on Patreon on how your experience has been when writing stuff for MCDM, as the cat's been let out of the bag, that you've been writing for the Encounters book.
Caio Lente: I still cannot believe — and I do not want to be, like, too happy, because we do not know how much or how many of my words will be in the final product. James can change his mind at any point and just scrap my writing and just ask for someone to do it. It's, it happens. It happens. I would not be surprised. Like, honestly, because these products are very big, and they're very difficult, and sometimes it's not even the freelancers' fault, right? The the requisites change and someone has to come in and write some stuff, some stuff on top. So I wouldn't, I wouldn't be mad or sad if that didn't happen.
But I did get...yeah, I said it in a few places once the Encounters book was announced, and the preview was posted and had my two lairs, my two delves, in it. The names, at least, because we haven't seen the rest of the text. Yeah, I still cannot believe this did happen. I saved the email with a little star, because...it's there forever now. But I interviewed James. This was my only interview on the podcast. I did interview James, by accident, because he invited himself onto your podcast.
Jon de Nor: Yeah, yeah, yeah!
Caio Lente: And then I commented like, "Well, this is going to be awesome!" And he was like, "You're next." And you're like, oh, wow. So yeah, I interviewed James, and I sent him the draft for You Meet in an Ambush. At that point it was very early days, but I think I had already given it a once-over. I had already playtested it once and given it a few, a little bit of a new coat of paint.
So I gave him — it was just a doc, right. Like a Google Doc. And I sent him — because after the interview, he was like, "Well, thank you for what you're doing with the community." And I was like, "Yeah, it's really fun, I'm even writing my first adventure. Thank you." He's like, "Yeah, what's the adventure?" So I talked a little bit about it, and at the end I sent him an email thanking him, and I gave him the link, and that was all. No word from it ever again.
And then a bunch of months later, he's like, "Hey, Caio, do you — I saw your adventure. It was really good. Do you want to write a lair for the Encounters book?" I almost fell off the freaking chair. I was like, "You must have gotten the wrong Caio, for sure!" (laughter) Like, I don't know who you think I am. I'm just a dork.
And I said — I couldn't say yes any faster. And then the anxiety hit, right? He sent me the template with — he posted, he already posted the sample delve, which is like some pirates in a cave. Some undead pirates in a cave. So he sent me the draft version of that as a sample. He sent me the Draw Steel style guide, and he sent me the rules. The book, the PDF. I was like, "Do you think I don't have the PDF already? Mate." But I know, I'm just kidding. I know he sent the email to everyone, all of the other freelancers. It's a standard. But I, I was almost like, "I'm pretty sure I bought this game." (laughter)
But, yeah. And then I started. I got the first — the second adventure from the book. It's a level one adventure. It's an angulotl adventure. And it was really hard because I was like, how do I do a swamp adventure that feels heroic? How do I make tiny cute frog people feel like badass villains? What are they doing to provoke the heroes? It was a whole thing.
I thought a long time about the map. Draw Steel maps have a lot of elevation. So how do I do elevation with frogs that usually live in ponds? So it was a whole thing. And while I was doing it, James sent me a second email, and he was like, "Someone dropped out. So I need someone to write a seventh-level troll adventure. Do you want to do it?" And I was like, "Fuck, man!...Yes. Yes, I do. Please." And that one, I also had to make a leader for the trolls.
And oh my God, so, in the end, I did both of them. It was really hard. It took me a while. I did some math. I think I was able to write — they were short adventures. They were short, I think, 1500 words each. I think it took me, I think I was able to write 200 words a day, which is not much. But it was my first time ever freelancing for RPG stuff. It was my first time working with a style guide. It was my first time getting paid to write. Because I'm a programmer, right?
It was crazy. It was loads — many first times, for me. And it was super anxiety-inducing. Because I was like, "This needs to be very good, this needs to be MCDM level." Right? How am I going to do this? And in the end, I was able to deliver both, on schedule, which is something James always says is very important for freelancers. So I tried to follow his advice. I was able to to give him both on schedule. He gave me some feedback on the first one, and he was like, "This is really good. You did a great job." And I was like, okay. Okay. Okay. Are you just lying? Are you kidding me? Is this real? I was so happy. I was just incredibly happy.
And then I sent in the second one, because it was due later, and he didn't reply. And I was like, okay, I shit the bed. Sorry for the French. I was like, okay, this one's very bad. And he didn't reply, and I waited for a couple of weeks. I was like, "Okay, okay, he's never talking to me again. He hates me. Because I wrote very badly, and I don't know English, and he's never going to talk to me again."
And then I sent him an email. I was like, "Is everything okay? Do I need to fix something? Do I need to fix everything?" And he was like, "No, we're just very busy. You can invoice us and I'll give you any feedback, but it's..." And then like a month later he was like, "It was accepted. We're going to playtest it."
So yeah, that's the whole story. It was a lot of anxiety writing something for MCDM. It was unbelievable luck. Like just talking to James and James being interested in me sharing my writing, and he liking it. But at some point, once the book is out, right, once the book is out and I know that my words are in the page, I want to make a video about about this, about this whole saga.
Jon de Nor: Ah, nice!
Caio Lente: Because I see a lot of people like, how do I get into, how do I freelance in the TTRPG industry? And every time I see someone answering, it's someone from the D&D 5e days, back when the DMs Guild was a big thing, and they're like, "Well, I started writing for the DMs Guild and people noticed," or "I started — like James, I started making a blog, and people noticed. I started a podcast and people noticed. And people hired me." And I think that's very different now.
So I wanted to be like, I want to make a video talking about this. About, like, starting the podcast, and then talking to the devs. and being part of a small but vibrant community, right? And creating your own little community inside the bigger community, the larger community. And sharing and making stuff, actually making stuff and posting it out there. Yeah, and then, inevitably, like, getting noticed by the devs, and having the luck of them wanting to make a product that has a small adventure that they could take a risk with smaller creators.
Because if they were just doing Crack the Sun, I don't think they would ask me, right? Because it's a big adventure, a lot of writing, a lot of stuff is going in there. So the delves are short, so they can call small, new people.
Jon de Nor: Makes sense. Yeah.
Caio Lente: So it was a blast. It was honestly a blast. And I hope people enjoy the adventures, if they come out on the way I imagine them.
Jon de Nor: Congrats on landing that. That's so amazing.
Caio Lente: Thank you so much. Yeah, I still can't believe it. (laughter)
Jon de Nor: We are running out of time. And I always ask my guests for some kind of recommendation that they want to share with the listeners. So what have you brought this time around?
Caio Lente: Yeah, I brought ICON, which is — you interviewed Tom Bloom, right, Jon? Yes. He's the author of Lancer, which is a very, very well-known indie tactical RPG. Tom is working on a new RPG, which is not about mechs. It's a fantasy...tactical...combat...heroic game.
Jon de Nor: Might it even be...cinematic? (laughter)
Caio Lente: Yeah, I don't know, I don't know. We'll see. It's called ICON, and he talks about it on the interview, I think. If I remember correctly.
Jon de Nor: Yeah, he mentions it, yeah.
Caio Lente: He mentions it, yeah. And the second version of the playtest, the playtest 2.0, is out, on his Discord server. And I've been taking a look, and I think it's going to be a really good game. I think, if you, if people like Draw Steel, they should check out the playtest for ICON, because it might be a great alternative to Draw Steel for people who...less realism and more, a more video-gamey vibe. And I say this in the most positive way possible. Yeah, I think he says like, flying is just a condition in his game?
Jon de Nor: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Caio Lente: Yeah. Like, he says, they went too realistic, they tried to model flying, like actually track flying. No, it's just a condition. Reading the rules, it's all like that, right? The abilities are all very simple. It feels a lot like Final Fantasy Tactics, where you have a grid, and you can only move — you can't move diagonally.
Jon de Nor: Oh?
Caio Lente: You can only move in straight vertical and horizontal axes, X and Y. So I think it's going to be really cool. It's a different vibe, but it's the same genre, and I think people might like it.
Jon de Nor: Interesting. He mentioned it on the interview and I thought to myself, I need to check this out. And I still haven't. So all the more fool me. (laughter) Thank you so much for that recommendation, Caio. And even more for coming on once again to the podcast.
Caio Lente: No, it was awesome.
Jon de Nor: It's been a blast.
Caio Lente: Thank you so much for having me. It's always super fun to talk.
Outro
Thank you so much The Dice Society for coming on. Despite collaborating often, we don't talk often, and this almost became a chat for us to catch up. Some of that might have come through in interview. But tough luck — it's my podcast and I can do what I want.
I want to thank tootallferne, MrMattDollar, Antan Karmola, and Ananam for submitting questions for The Dice Society.
If you want to be featured on Goblin Points, or know of someone else who should be, leave a comment on YouTube or Spotify, or send me an e-mail on tips@goblinpoints.com.
Links to everything, including this script can be found in the show notes, and on goblinpoints.com.
If you want to support my work, you can become a Patreon member. As a paying member you can submit questions for upcoming guests. You also get access to premium features on Stawl. Stawl is digital tool set for playing and running Draw Steel: digital hero sheets, looking up monsters, or read the core rules. Go to Stawl.app. S-T-A-W-L-dot-app.
Next episode is on the 5th. That's going to be the news roundup for January.
See you next time. Snakkes.