Intro
This episode I'm joined by Matheus Graef. If you've bought any product from MCDM in the past 5 years, you've seen his work: the mimic backpack retainer, the yumgrubs, the MCDM kobolds, radenwights, and the list goes on. He talks about being a TTRPG illustrator, his process and how it is to work with MCDM as an artist.
I'm Jon de Nor and this is Goblin Points.
Interview
Jon de Nor: Welcome to Goblin Points, Matheus!
Matheus Graef: Hey, happy to be here.
Jon de Nor: Introduce yourself! And also, how did you end up working with MCDM in the first place?
Matheus Graef: Okay, yeah, I'm Matheus, so I'm, I'm a fantasy artist, fantasy illustrator from Brazil. And I've been working with fantasy art, like, for tabletop games for over eight years now. I think it was 2020-ish, or late 2019 or something. I think it was 2020. I, yeah, somewhere around there, I got my first gig for MCDM, and...Kingdoms and Warfare, I think it was. That was, yeah, that was the book I, that was the first book I worked on. I did like 3 or 4 illustrations. I was super stoked at the time. Like, to be working on, on something with Matt Colville. And I was like, yeah, that was the first thing that I did. And then I went on to do Arcadia.
Jon de Nor: Ooh, nice.
Matheus Graef: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I did lots of interior illustration for Arcadia. Was also super fun because every issue had like, super wildly, you know, very...illustrations and monsters that you would never really know what was coming. I even did like a mimic city, mimic town or something. I don't know if you if you had seen that, but I did do like something that was like a mimic, like the whole town was a mimic. Anyway, it was crazy.
Jon de Nor: I know I've seen an illustration of like an alleyway that is kind of trying to swallow — is that you?
Matheus Graef: Yeah. That's mine, that's mine. Yeah.
Jon de Nor: Wow, I really like that piece! I didn't know that was you. (laughter)
Matheus Graef: Yeah, yeah, that's from the old days. Like four, four years ago, but, yeah, that was...yeah, that was from that time. That did like...then I went to do Beastheart for MCDM, which I did, like, a bunch of monsters. And that's when I think also that they were like, okay, we want, like, this artist to work on Flee, Mortals. Because, you know, I did...I think for Beastheart, I did, like, 12 or something. And like one of my favorites is the mimic backpack companion. Yes.
Jon de Nor: Yes! I love the mimic backpack companion.
Matheus Graef: Yeah. That was...I don't know if that came in the briefing as-is, or if they were like, just, "We want to see, like, what your take would be on a mimic backpack companion." And I was...I hope I pulled it off because I really personally like, to this day...
Jon de Nor: I love that mimic backpack companion. It's so good.
Matheus Graef: Yeah. It was a really fun one to do. And, I went to do, you know, Feathers, the classic owlbear companion and all that in the Beastheart. And then we, and then it was Flee, Mortals. And that was like a whole thing. I think Flee, Mortals is probably the project with MCDM where I got to do, like, most of designing the monsters, and, you know, just...that was a lot of art. I think it was over 30 monsters that I did for Flee, Mortals, and...yeah.
Jon de Nor: Wow!
Matheus Graef: And in the span of...I don't really remember, but it might have been 3, 4 months or something like that. So it's like relatively short, like, turnout for so many pieces, right? It's like, you know, you're finishing your wave of, like, ten monsters, and it's like, just, ten more on your desk. and you're like, okay, you need sketches by next week. But yeah, I mean, I've worked with, like, I've worked with Wizards of the Coast, I've worked with other companies. And I will say this, like...MCDM has, like, really...I don't know, man. I don't know if it's the art directors or what it is, but they have really well-spaced-out timelines for their assignments. That's something I really do feel when I'm working with them.
Like, the flow, when you're doing like 30 monsters and you know that you're going to have to do like more than 30 monsters for a book, you're worried, right? You're worried that, you know, you're not going to be able to finish on time, like, your ten — because it's in batches, always, right? They don't have you, like, do 30 at a time. That's, that would be crazy. So it has to be in batches. You're always a little worried if you're going to be able to do all those ten and kind of keep the same level of detailing, like, consistency and whatnot. And then, you know.
So yeah, I mean, they do have like a finesse when it comes to dealing with artists. And I really enjoy that about working with them. But yeah, I mean, so, worked on Flee Mortals, and then it was off to — and then at that point I...there was, like, this shift happening, I feel like. It was something that you could feel. Like, as an artist, I wasn't chitchatting with design or whatever all the time. We would touch base, every so, every now and again on certain aspects of monsters. They would be like, oh, these work a certain way, so, you know, you need to kind of incorporate that into the design of the monster, et cetera, and, you know, go back and forth on that. Sometimes I would see, like, game design documents for specific things, but it was never something that I was like...I wasn't, I didn't know, like, what they were doing behind the scenes for some, some of the stuff.
So...but there was definitely like this shift that was happening. And I feel like it was with Flee, Mortals that it became very clear that they were steering a certain direction. And there were things that, well, I felt that they didn't...there were things that they really liked about 5e, and those were the things that mattered to them, it felt like to me, at least. And that's...then, after Flee, Mortals, you know, the MCDM RPG came along, and that, I mean...it didn't really take me by surprise, but it was like, oh, okay. You know? And I was excited to work on that too. I was, you know, invited to do some of the art also, and do some of the concepts also. Specifically for the orcs, I did some concepts which I'm about to post, like soon on the Draw Steel Reddit.
Jon de Nor: Nice.
Matheus Graef: It was like...it was a different approach, which didn't make it, but some things of it did make it, right. The ridges on the forehead, things like that. I feel like everyone kind of touched base on that. At that point there were... they had hired like three different artists or something to..."Everyone, like, just throw a bunch of stuff at the wall and see what sticks."
Jon de Nor: (laughter)
Matheus Graef: And so I was one of them who did concept art for the orcs, and I feel like they were like, "We want to do something, you know, that's kind of Star Trek-y with like, ridges on the forehead. Can you guys, like, try to do, like something like that?" And everyone kind of had the same idea, like, it felt like, and the design for the head was like, there. It was something — it felt like...it was something, like, in the, you know, overall phlogiston of ideas. And every artist was, you know, kind of linked to that one idea. And then it was there, you know, it just came to fruition. It had to be, you know.
But yeah. And so I worked on Draw Steel, I did art for many things in the book, which I...many items also, which was fun to do, because I really do like working on items. I think it's an undervalued aspect of, you know, RPG books, is items, because...yeah. I mean, when you look at an item, especially as a kid, and sometimes they do...you know, I look back at when I was a kid, and I was looking at these things while I was looking at my older brother's, like, second edition D&D books. And I was feeling really inspired by, you know, the most, like, minute stuff. You know, you really extrapolate on that stuff when you're younger.
And so I really feel like, you know, giving attention to, you know, small things like items, you know, the monsters, things like that, that's also like a really fun, very important aspect of like, RPG art, you know. Not just the epic, like, big scenes, but also, you know, the smaller things. What's on like the corner of the page, you know? All of that, like, kind of gives flavor and really immerses you anyway. Going off a tangent.
Jon de Nor: (laughter) No, this is good, this is great. How detailed are the orders or prompts from MCDM when they ask for a piece of art? Are they like really detailed about what they want? But it also sounds like you're kind of free to kind of experiment with your own ideas, or...?
Matheus Graef: Well, I mean, that kind of depends. It depends on the subject, because when they do have, like...when, for example, when I was working on the talent, with all the superhero stuff, Grace had these very specific designs for the heroes, right? And you couldn't really like...you had to kind of stick to that kind of stuff. So for some projects they do have like a very, you know, extensive, like...I would say, like, an art bible, which is kind of like, yeah, it's kind of like...it's not just the references, but it's things that you do have to do stick with.
For other subjects, they don't, or they're either, like, hiring me to also further develop some of their ideas. Like for example, like the time raiders. They already had some idea of what the time raiders would look like. They even had, like, 3D concepts of the time raiders, the armor, the guns, the boots, stuff like that. And they came to me with those things and they were like, "Okay, so you have this. You know, paint this, paint this in, you know, paint these, you know, weirdo four-armed punks from outer space, like..." And I was like, "Dude, hell yeah," you know?
Jon de Nor: (laughter)
Matheus Graef: But, you know, answering your question, it really depends. In general, they will either, they submit like a brief, which usually has what they want, and it's very direct. And when they need, they will provide like visual reference. And when it's really necessary, whether it's for a certain character, or it's, you know, for a specific type of monster or design that they have in mind, like, for example, time raiders, they will provide a guide for you. So it really depends.
The kobolds, for example, the kobolds, or however you pronounce it. They were designed by Spencer Hibnick. And the text was all there. Like the idea, right, was all there. But I was the one in charge of, like, actually designing them from, like, the scales to, like, if they were gonna have frills or if they were gonna have horns or how they were gonna look if, whether there were going to be like super stoic, or are they are still going to be kind of, you know, scaredy and weird little guys, you know? So how much how much of weird do you want? How much of lizard, how much of dragon do you want? So for that I was, you know, I was really happy to design them, because I feel like people are, you know, people really vibe with the final kobold design.
Jon de Nor: They look fantastic. I love the kobolds and how they turned out in Flee, Mortals and now in Draw Steel, which basically inherited them. I love the small Roman kobolds, they're so cool. *(laughter)
Matheus Graef: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's kind of...I like it because there's almost like a kind of Alice in Wonderland kind of vibe about them, at least to me. When you think of like...I picture, like, this giant army of like tiny lizard soldiers. It's very psychedelic, you know, if you really stop to think about it. And it's kind of terrifying because, you know, at first it's funny, but then, like, they're super well organized, you know? It's not something you want to just, you know, stumble upon on, on a casual stroll.
But yeah. So, yeah, it's, the kobolds specifically,I did put out some concept art on my Artstation for what they were going to look like there. You know, we did have, like, there there was this scale, like a slider, you know, of, like, lizard to dragon. And it was like...yeah, it was like, so, oh, so, you know, very lizard, kinda lizard, and kinda dragon, and then, you know, very dragon-ish. And we were playing around with that. Also, there's some unpublished art where it's like they were just geckos, right? They were just variations of geckos, and we didn't, we hadn't really, you know, settled with the outfit.
The outfit was really interesting because if you do notice, their scale mail, is actually, like, when they're wearing the scale, they're actually wearing, you know, stuff from the...I forgot the name of the big monster that they use, but they have a scaled monster, which they use, and they're actually wearing scales from that monster, which they've repurposed for their armor.
Jon de Nor: Ohhh! (laughter)
Matheus Graef: So we had to, I had to come up with something for that. So it's like a lot of stuff that you have to come up with for some assignments. For others, it's just like, oh, man. I mean, I think the...one of the best assignments there was, like one of the best briefings was, you know that monster...? God, it has escaped me, the name, like, right now. But there's a monster, it's like dumplings that they're insects.
Jon de Nor: Insects...
Matheus Graef: Yeah. Insect...like. It's like, little critter dumplings. And you just eat them. You can start using them in.
Jon de Nor: Is it the pitlings? No, no, no, no, not the pitlings.
Matheus Graef: Oh no, no, no, no. That's all from — I think that's from Flee, Mortals. I don't know if it made it into Draw Steel, but I hope it did because it's such a fun idea. Anyways, they're like, they look like fried dumplings. Very, you know, delicious-looking fried dumplings that you just can't get enough of. And you just, they just go into your stomach and, you know, bloat to death or something like that. It's kind of...yeah. I forgot the name now. But that was a really fun assignment. And they were like, "Oh, so these should look like six-legged fried dumplings. And maybe have like an adventurer who's like, you know, his stomach is like, fully bloated and he can't take any more of those dumplings, so they're like eating him or something like that." Yeah. I don't know if you remember.
Jon de Nor: I feel like there's a vague, I have a vague, oh...currently paging through Flee, Mortals.
Matheus Graef: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jon de Nor: To see if I can find...
Matheus Graef: So that's one thing, where it's like, very creative, very picturesque kind of briefing, where it's like a short sentence and you're like, yeah, I can work with this, and this is amazing. So you just go and you send this stuff. So yeah, that was a long, long answer to a short question. I'm afraid of what's going to happen when you bring in like, questions from your Patreons, because if I keep on this rhythm, we're not going to get to any of them.
Jon de Nor: Well, the great thing is, you've actually ended up accidentally answering some of those questions.
Matheus Graef: Right? Right.
Jon de Nor: So this is working out great for me. (laughter)
Speaker 4 Oh, yeah!
Jon de Nor: One question that's been asked, actually, which kind of relates to to the art, the prompts you get for your art...how specific are — I guess I'm asking about MCDM specifically in all these questions.
Matheus Graef: Mhm, yeah.
Jon de Nor: But how much do they allow for your...are they very particular about kind of the, the style of the art, or do you get to do your own spin?
Matheus Graef: I think they look for artists that...how can I put this? They look for, they're looking for...I wouldn't say they're looking for a specific style, okay? Because you have, like, for example, another big, amazing Brazilian artist who worked on this is Gustavo Pelissari. And he does a very specific kind of artwork where it is...it's very much his own style, right? You have...I completely forgot the name of the person who did like the opening pages for monsters on Flee, Mortals, but for the kobolds, where it's like a more [Frank] Frazetta-ish, like old-school fantasy — completely forgot. Yeah.
So I think that they allow a, you know, they allow for the artist to come through. I would say like, of course, they are looking for, you know, something specific, something that, you know...they're not going to hire me if I'm doing something super, like, cartoony or whatever. But, you know, it might also work out for them. I don't know. I feel like, in the end, they really do find a way to piece together all these artists in a way that really resonates with the final material.
So yeah, I would say, like, if they like your art and, you know, if your art makes sense, if you can kind of picture it in the overall, like the, with everything else, I think they're okay. They're not super specific, like, "Oh, you need to do it in this style," or whatever, no. They have never asked me, at least, for any of that. You know?
Jon de Nor: I found the picture, the yumgrubs, I'm guessing.
Matheus Graef: Yumgrubs! Yeah. That's the one. Yumgrubs, yeah.
Jon de Nor: Page 297 of Flee, Mortals, if anyone listening wants to look it up. (laughter)
Matheus Graef: Yeah, yeah. The yumgrubs — that was really fun one, like, really quick one, you know, to visualize. When you picture, like, a fried dumpling with six legs, it's very easy to visualize it. So I don't know exactly who created that idea, but it's amazing. Yeah. And it's a really...
Jon de Nor: I honestly hadn't noticed before that they actually look a bit like dumplings. I — (laughter)
Matheus Graef: Yeah, yeah.
Jon de Nor: They look like insects! But now that you mention it, I can clearly see that they're dumplings! (laughter)
Matheus Graef: Dumplings, exactly! Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's funny, and it's, like, that one I remember, like, clearly. It was like one sentence that...the briefing was like one sentence. It's like, you know, yumgrubs are like little creatures, like, look like fried dumplings with six legs. And you should picture them like, you should picture a — they're delicious, and you should picture an adventurer having like, a fill of them and, you know, can't eat anymore or whatever. It was like very, very, very short briefing, you know.
Jon de Nor: This is one from, this is a question from a Patreon patron which asks, basically, if you've, gotten feedback on an art piece that pushes it in a direction you didn't expect.
Matheus Graef: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I mean, this is always something that I feel like...this is a tip for, you know, other artists in general, I feel like, because sometimes you — as an artist, I feel like this is a job that can get very...you can get very, like, enamored with an idea because it springs out from your mind. And you, you know, you want it to work, but sometimes it doesn't work. And it's something that you pick up as you have more and more years of working with, you know, art directors and stuff like that. When they're just like, "You need to push this a certain way," you just learn to say yes.
There's kind of a subtle dance, of course, of, like, if you really believe in an idea, you will try to incorporate that into the design. But at the same time, you want to respect the vision of your client, like, that's just how it works. So answering the question, yeah, absolutely, there have been times. Like I, you know, I would say like for designing monsters, it's always something where they're like, "We want this to be a certain way, this doesn't look a certain way, or maybe you could try this, instead." And it does, like, generally, it turns out like, amazing. Like, no wonder they're art directors, right? Right.
So, yeah, they do, like, have a way to bring, like, the piece to a certain place and they have it in their minds and it's kind of very much like, you're both...it's crazy, like, when you're working with art in a certain way, it's like you're trying to sculpt something with your mind, with the other person. And, you know, and they're like, "No, no, no, you're just, you need to do it like this." And then they kind of — at some point, they do like come in and do like draw over the art kind of to give you a vague sense of what they want. But sometimes they do have a, they do simply say, like, "What if you tried this?" And whenever MCDM has done this before, they are always very courteous, because I don't...I'm trying to...(laughter)
I'm trying to remember, specifically, one time they asked me, I think it was twice or thrice to take something in a different direction, and every time they did, they were very courteous because they understood that I was, you know, I was putting a lot of work in there. Oh! Yeah, it was for Draw Steel, for the hakaan, the stone people?
Jon de Nor: Yeah.
Matheus Graef: Yeah. So for that, they were experimenting, and as I was, you know, doing the illustration, they were having these different ideas and so they wanted to experiment with certain things. I think at the beginning, the hakaan were very much, like, very stone people. Like, they looked like statues. And so the more, you know, gentle, you know, features started to come along with the, as I was working on the piece. It wasn't something that we intended with originally, right?
So yeah, there's absolutely times when it does happen and there's also times when I, you know, bring something to them that they were not expecting. And we kind of, you know, they think, "Oh, well, that works really well. Let's go with that." You know? So yeah, it is. It happens on both sides, for sure.
Jon de Nor: Interesting. It fascinates me with the hakaan because I remember — I've been paying attention to development since the beginning of Draw Steel. And when I...I feel like I remember them being explained by Matt as basically like stone people, but I feel like they lost the hardest part of the stone, maybe, for the final design. So you're saying that they started out — did they start basically like statues and kind of work their way into something more organic?
Matheus Graef: Yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure. Yeah, for sure. They were very — I think in the beginning it was very like Sumerian-ish, you know, kind of statues, and the features were very much carved. They were, they looked very carved, which, like...between you and me, I think was really cool!
Jon de Nor: (laughter)
Matheus Graef: I really enjoyed that, you know. But, yeah, I, they were very much, like, carved. Carved like, you know, you would see, like the features carved, like they wouldn't — they didn't even have eyelids proper, you know, or irises. They were just very much this, you know, statue. And as we progressed, they were like, they kind of took it in different directions and whatnot. So that's what happened with the hakaan specifically, right? "Can we try this. Can we try that..."
For the time raiders, I've like...I'm just trying to remember certain things. Time raiders, I don't know. Yeah, time raiders was like a done thing. It was like, yeah, time raiders, do the time raiders. They had this design in mind, and it was like, you know, just quickly done. The idea was super well-designed. From the get-go, they already had a very concrete idea of what they wanted, right?
Whereas for for others, it's like — the radenwights, for example, the rats? Those, I think I designed them. I don't know if they had, like, two drawings of what they had in mind and, you know, they kind of say "Go wild with this," and so I kind of did. And so I, you know, it spun off in different directions. So, "Okay, so what if you have a white hamster, you know, kind of looking one, right? Or what if you have, like, a fluffy one that's more cutesy? Or what if you have..." You know. So what directions can you take this, and what works and what doesn't, you know? And...yeah.
Jon de Nor: I'm such a fan of the radenwights, their design in Draw Steel, and especially — I recently directed Draw Steel for a few people at at a con, and they encountered a band of radenwights, and they're like, "Oh, rat people, I don't know about this." And then I pull up the cover image of the monster band section of the radenwights with the maestro and everything, and I'm like, "No, no, they're like this!" And they go, "Oh! Well, that's cool!" (laughter)
Matheus Graef: (laughter) Yeah, the maestro, yeah, the maestro. Oh, man. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's fun. For the maestro, I wanted to do, like, a kind of — you can kind of see it in the hair of the maestro — like a Beethoven kind of kind of vibe going on?
Jon de Nor: (laughter) Fantastic!
Matheus Graef: Did you notice it? Yeah.
Jon de Nor: I think I'm coming to realize that...I think I really like your art! (laughter)
Matheus Graef: Oh, thank you, thank you, thank you.
Jon de Nor: I didn't even realize how many of the pieces that I actually remember that turns out to be your pieces. (laughter)
Matheus Graef: Yeah, there's, like, lots of pieces that I do, I did do for MCDM over the years, and I think that they ended up reusing some stuff from the past. So in the end, like in the final book of Draw Steel, there's even more stuff, right? That sometimes I even forget that I did, you know? I'll be flipping through stuff and I'll be like, "Wait, I think I did this, like..." You know? Yeah.
Jon de Nor: (laughter) When you're working on these pieces — in some cases, as you say, they have like a very specific vision of what they want, like the time raiders. But when it's, when you're...when the description is more vague, do you have like a process that you use to kind of figure out how to even begin on something that's very, like, nebulous?
Matheus Graef: Yeah. Well, okay. So when you're working with a new client, this is tricky, right. Because you need to find your footing, and I feel like, you know...there's something very specific with working with, you know, MCDM at this point. I've worked with them for years. So I know, like, how to — what they're looking for, in general. And...so I know what direction to take, nowadays.
I feel like I've been eased into this, also, from all the working with on Arcadia, on what I would call like now, you know, smaller projects. Not to say that, you know, Arcadia wasn't like an amazing thing with so many, you know, talent involved. But it was, like, compared to Draw Steel where it's like a very concise thing? So like, I have been eased into working with them and figuring out their language and whatnot.
When I receive something that I have no idea where to start with, and they have, like, they don't have a very clear visual reference or whatever, or it's vague, like the yumgrubs, for example, I have to resort to winging it, right? And I feel like when I — (laughter) it's true! And you kind of — well, on the sketches, that's when you kind of have...that's one of the fun parts, is just going bonkers. Going absolutely, just...you get all these ideas when you read something and you're like, okay, well, just going to put all of these into sketch form and see what sticks.
But of course, as I said, as you work with a client long enough, you begin to understand and get a feel for what they want. And especially like MCDM, which has these, you know, the specific art directors, and I've been working with them specifically for years now. It's different when you're working with, for example, someone like Wizards of the Coast, who has like, like a huge roster of art directors. As you work with certain art directors, you start getting a feel for those specifically. So whenever you receive commissions from them, you're like, okay, so I understand that this person likes more of a, like a creepy, you know, kind of vibe. This person likes more of a narrative vibe. So you give to them what you understand.
So that's kind of where I go, where I start with. But yeah, answering your question, when it's a new client, dude, I don't know, you feel like you jumped off and you have no parachute. And it's just like, find a way to stay alive, you know? It is how it is.
Jon de Nor: (laughter) Well, you talked a bit about how you got started with MCDM back in the day, through...what was the name? Constant...?
Matheus Graef: Conceptopolis.
Jon de Nor: Right. That one. (laughter)
Matheus Graef: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jon de Nor: Because I've got a question from, from the Dice Society, who's a fellow Brazilian, who asks, how does a Latin American artist break into this space? Is there any, like, particular challenges you feel like you've faced because of where you're located in the world?
Matheus Graef: Listen, I think that there are good things and bad things and...let's see how we can answer this. Because the way that I feel like Brazilians can break through is, like, there's a language barrier, obviously. And there is a huge barrier when it comes to conventions, right? Because I feel like one way that, you know, artists in the United States or, you know, the other countries — I don't know, I don't know what the scene is like in Europe — but I feel like in the United States, people do know each other, and they know each other personally, and they meet with creators, they meet with content creators, and people do — there's like a group of people, and it's...that can be really hard to break into, because those people know each other personally, from conventions. Every conventions, you know, GenCon or MagicCon or whatever. Those people are meeting up and chatting and, you know, how can a Brazilian break into that, you know? I don't know! Personally, I don't know.
Like, there are events, there's like...like again, Gustavo Pelissari, he had a — he has, I don't know, a Discord where he talks to, you know, artists, and people can actually kind of reach out to him. And he's someone who's worked with, you know, MCDM. He's worked with...his art work on the Marvel card game. He's worked on...he's now working with Magic: The Gathering, also. So he's someone who you can reach out to and and be there. And I would say like, one way is to be there, right? You need to connect. The most important thing about being an illustrator and being, you know, if you want to work with whatever, WotC or MCDM or whatever, you need to connect with people. Like, there's no way you're going to do this if you don't connect with people and you don't, you're not there, you know.
Again, so, it is harder for Brazilians in that sense. It's not just the language barrier. It is the conventions. It is not being close to these, you know, big clients, that are not from your country, that you want to work with. Not seeing them face-to-face definitely has a big impact on that. But one way you can do that is by trying to, you know, of course, you know, have some common sense, right? Just don't go trying to insert yourself into people's lives. But you need to network. You need to create connections. It's very important.
I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for the help of other artists. And, like, I'm not like, ashamed to say that, you know. The only reason I'm doing Magic: The Gathering cards is because of Bruce Brenneise, who is another artist, who works for Magic. He was kind enough to introduce me to people. So you need to be very savvy about seeing where these opportunities are. And this is something that just comes with experience. It is experience, you know, you need to start somewhere.
And you need to understand where your skill level is, also, you know. If you're someone who...you understand that your work is not on par with what's been published by certain clients, you need to look for where your work is being published, like something of your skill level is being published, and you need to be on the radar of those people. And as you work, you get better. And then at some point it will happen, but it will take years. And I think that's an important thing that you can't avoid. You know, it will take years.
Jon de Nor: Yeah. You just have to bide your time and and work on it, I guess. (laughter)
Matheus Graef: Yeah, I suppose. There's no, like, secret formula or anything, you know. It's just, be honest, and be professional. But and in a way, like, yeah, absolutely, Brazilians do suffer a lot from the...I wouldn't say...yeah, hey, maybe, like, lack of opportunity or whatever, but it's just like the language barrier and everything, like, and the social, economic, you know, situation of, like, you know...it's not something that people can just go out of their way to try and tackle on this kind of work, you know? It is demanding, but it is something that you can work on at your own time. And I feel like at the end of the day, it's always going to be something valuable because you'll be picking up a new skill and it might come in handy. It might not. You know, I think that people should follow what, you know...if this is in your heart,you know, you should follow it, right? That's what I think.
Jon de Nor: And speaking of following your heart, I briefly at least want to touch on something you mentioned. And I know my first notice of it was when the Dice Society posted about it on Bluesky, which is you're working on your own TTRPG.
Matheus Graef: Oh, yeah.
Jon de Nor: And you also mentioned it when we talked, both before this recording and also when we were just messaging each other. So give us like an introduction to what you're working on with your RPG.
Matheus Graef: Sure, yeah. I'm working on Omios Ures. It's a weird fantasy RPG, and it's a classless, levelless game with a fail-for-XP progression. So every time you fail a roll, you gain one XP, and when you reach seven XP, you increase that skill, and that's how you gain your feat, and that's how you progress your character, right? But I feel like the big thing, you know, other than the mechanics, which some are very in tune with, like, what, for example, Draw Steel, goes for, which is kind of to break some shackles of, like, oh, so you roll, you miss, oh, my God, so you got to wait for your turn to come around again. So, you know, I have my own way where I deal, how I deal with that kind of conundrum.
But it's like a very weird fantasy RPG. It's like a setting — if you, like 70s Star Wars, Morrowind, Planescape, you will like this, right? So, for example, like the dwarves, the dwarves are made of metal. And what that means is that as they age, they become green with patina, and as they die, they are traditionally smelted to be passed on as family heirlooms, right? So, like, as weapons and armor, you know, so. So you're literally a dwarf made of metal, and that's something that I really wanted for this, is like to make every lineage very much, like, you are what you are, what it says you are. If you're a dwarf made of metal, like, swords will dent you, and you will be able to jump off a rooftop, and if you fall on somebody, it's a game over for them.
There are the lizards who are literal, like sentient, Komodo dragons. And you can climb on walls, you can, you know, eat rotten food. You can, you know, do all the crazy stuff a lizard can. But also you're, you know, you're cold-blooded. So you need, like, a source of warmth to get through the days, you know. And then there's a personal favorite, which is that the gnomes — they're very, very small. And you know how all gnomes wear hats? Like, right, this is like a trademark thing.
Jon de Nor: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah!
Matheus Graef: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So in Omios Ures, is the gnomes need to wear those hats, because if they don't, if they go without a hat for seven days, they become a goblin, right?
Jon de Nor: (laughter)
Matheus Graef: And...yeah. And so every gnome is at least a couple hundred years old. This is something that's written in the book. So, their lifespan, I just don't explain it. Every gnome is at least a couple hundred years old, and they go on to live on for so long that humans don't know how much they live on for. So, you know, it's just...so this is just something, yeah, it's that kind of vibe. And so you take all this weird fantasy stuff and you put it in the world of, like, 70s Star Wars, you know, Morrowind-ish stuff, Planescape, and that's Omios Ures, pretty much.
Then you have all the mechanics, which are really fun. You know, the fail-for-XP gives you a very organic character progression. So your character can start out as someone who rides a wagon and, you know, two sessions in, you could have picked up so many skills from failing to, you know, conduct your caravan that now you can buy a feat to have an animal companion or something like that. So, oh, suddenly you're a ranger, now, you know. So that's kind of how it flows.
Jon de Nor: And if I remember correctly, you also...some of the original concepts you did for the orcs for MCDM, some of those ideas kind of trickled into the orcs for your game?
Matheus Graef: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And this is something that I'm going to post — yeah, I'm going to do the post on Reddit after this interview, and you can, if you want, you can, you can put it on the description or something. But absolutely, it trickled in. It's like for MCDM, I kind of wanted to do something because, at the time, I was very much like kind of enamored with Bronze Age, you know, the Bronze Age design of armor and things like that. And I felt like, you know, maybe the MCDM orcs could, you know, kind of go in that direction, I don't know. So I pitched that idea and made some very specific designs. But at the end, you know, that didn't catch. What really caught was the ridges on the foreheads and the overall attitude, but...
So those were very Bronze Age-themed. And so I just...that just, it was stored in my mind-shelfs, somewhere. And as I was working on my setting, that just came back to me, and it came back with those orcs riding hippos, you know. So there's an illustration of those orcs, and I thought that the hippo was an amazing mount for that kind of work. So you have these Bronze Age-kinda-looking orcs, they're riding hippos, and, yeah, it's crazy to think that that came from, you know, from something that I did, you know, for MCDM, for sure. You know.
Jon de Nor: (laughter) That's fantastic. I mean, I haven't really thought of hippos as mounts, but they are — they look very sturdy, and I know they're really fast. So in some degree, they do really fit like a mount.
Matheus Graef: Yeah, they fit like a perfect orc mount, too. If you picture orcs, like, I don't know, they have the tusks, the hippos have, the big, you know...it's like, it just fits really well. And I can almost envision this very serene, quiet lake, right? Like a swampish lake. And then all of a sudden, these hippo mounts, the riders just start slushing out of the water with their mounts, like an ambush. I would not want to be there, you know? But it is very, it's a really cool scene that I had in my head with the hippo mounts, and, yeah. It's an amphibious mount also, which is interesting,
Jon de Nor: True! (laughter) That's brilliant. We're coming up on the hour and reaching the end of our time, and I always ask my guests to bring some kind of recommendation that they want people to either check out or be aware of. So what have you brought for our listeners?
Matheus Graef: Well, I've brought Torque Borg, which is by a friend of mine who's an art director of Ghostfire, actually, Ghostfire Gaming. You know, with...
Jon de Nor: Ah!
Matheus Graef: Yeah. So he's got his own project right now, and I would really want people to check out, which is Torque Borg, which is a post-apocalyptic, powered by MÖRK BORG. And it's set in, like, a radioactive wasteland. And it's, it has a very, very, very tight art direction. So, yeah, that's my recommendation. And also, of course, if you want to check out Omios Ures, I, heh, I wouldn't, you know, suggest against it. But yeah.
Jon de Nor: (laughter) Oh, actually! This is kind of not where I'm supposed to ask this, but — it doesn't follow the structure of my interviews — but I notice, on your, on your website, that in addition to your RPG, you had, like, a setting thing, I think?
Matheus Graef: Lodestar to Karamouska. Yeah.
Jon de Nor: ...Sure! (laughter)
Matheus Graef: So that's — yeah. Yeah, that's actually, it's a setting booklet for Omios Ures. So if you go on the Omios Ures itch.io, you'll actually be able to get, you know, all that for, you know, pay what you like, you can get it for free. All the PDFs. So it's the, you know, the main book and the setting booklet and the adventure module, which takes place in that city from the setting booklets. So, yeah.
Jon de Nor: Ah, interesting!
Matheus Graef: Those are the...yeah, yeah, yeah. And it can be read as-is. It doesn't have to be a setting booklet. It is more of a guide to a certain city. So it's a fantasy city and it's...Karamouska is a city that's underground, it's like an underground Las Vegas. And the stars are full of — the skies are full of stars, and the stars are, like, emeralds and gems and whatnot, encrusted upon the underground skies. And people migrate to the city in hopes of an earthquake, so the stars will fall upon their porches. So that's the city, you know, heh.
Jon de Nor: (laughter) Fantastic. I love that idea.
Matheus Graef: Yeah. It's got a lot more going for it, but that's, you know, that's the short of it, you know?
Jon de Nor: Wow. It has been a great honor, and an even greater pleasure, to have you on. This has been really great.
Matheus Graef: No, man, it's been really fun. I mean, I love talking about, you know, working with MCDM. If any artist gets a chance to work with them, like, they are one of the finest people, okay, in the TTRPG space right now. If you get a job for them, it's like a godsend, you know. They're really, really fun to work with.
Jon de Nor: Wow. The highest praise. (laughter)
Matheus Graef: Yeah, haha. For sure.
Outro
Thank you so much Matheus for coming on! It was a blast. As the interview went along, I realized just how much of Matheus' art I've loved in MCDM's products, and I said so in the interview too. I think the portfolio on his website undersells the great work he's done.
I want to thank Ananam, Subharup Roy, Antan Karmola, FoxTrick, and The Dice Society for submitting questions for Matheus.
If you want to be featured on Goblin Points, or know of someone else who should be, leave a comment on YouTube or Spotify, or send me an e-mail on tips@goblinpoints.com.
Links to everything, including this script can be found in the show notes, and on goblinpoints.com.
If you want to support my work, you can become a Patreon supporter. As a paying member you can submit questions for upcoming guests. You also get access to premium features on Stawl. Stawl is digital tool set for playing and running Draw Steel: digital hero sheets, looking up monsters, or read the core rules. Go to Stawl.app. S-T-A-W-L-dot-app.
Next episode is on the 5th. That's going to be the news roundup for December.
See you next time. Snakkes.