Intro
Paul Ligorski is back! He's currently running a very successful crowdfunder for his next big Draw Steel adventure: The Cave of Amber Tears. We talk about the inspiration behind the new adventure and about his process for designing adventures, both for Draw Steel and other TTRPGs.
I'm Jon de Nor and this is Goblin Points.
Interview
Jon de Nor Welcome back to Goblin Points, Paul Ligorski!
Paul Ligorski Hey, Jon, it's great to be back.
Jon de Nor So you've been on once before. But that's like over half a year ago. So.
Paul Ligorski Yeah.
Jon de Nor (laughter) Introduce yourself and tell us a bit about how you came into the MCDM community back in the day.
Paul Ligorski Very good. Yeah. Well hi, everybody. Paula Gorski here. You might know me in the MCDM community or online as Heart of Arcana. And I started with the MCDM community, like many others, as a Dungeon Master for the Seattle game, as we are fond of calling it online, and immediately found Matt's videos and like many, was just absolutely hooked. And I think I mentioned this in the last episode, and if I didn't — this is the way I often think about myself, is that I am the ideal customer, quote-unquote, for MCDM? Like, everything they do, I'm like, yes, more, please. Yeah. I just really vibed with everything that Matt was saying, the messages, the presentation...and obviously not everybody has this experience. But for me, everything that I put into practice from his advice videos and so on, just really worked for me. And so I've been a staunch supporter and fan since 2018, I guess. Yeah.
Jon de Nor I feel like the, well, not necessarily an elephant, but at least something in the room is, of course, your crowdfunder. And while we are recording this and when this goes out, the crowdfunder will still be live. And so far, it's going really, really well.
Paul Ligorski Yes, it — yeah. Yeah, sure. Yes, yes it is. My goodness. Good God. Yeah, today we're recording this on November 7th, and as of now, the project is at 103 backers with $3,483. And just for context, the funding goal was $1,000. It funded within the first 30 minutes of it going live on Tuesday morning on November 4th. And yeah, right now, the project still has, about 20 days left. So...haha. Cool. Yes. Yeah, I'm...maybe let me just say real quick, like, I'm flabbergasted, and so blown away by the support. Many folks probably know this is my first-ever crowdfunder. I've released adventures — we talked a lot about them the last time I got to come on Goblin Points. So this was a big risk for me. And I should say it's been a very interesting experience, because at every point, what the project needed was the thing that I didn't initially want to do. I didn't initially want to have a print run. It was originally just going to be a digital release. I didn't want to have it..contextualizing, like money, right, is kind of difficult because I think in the grand scheme of things, especially in tabletop roleplaying game crowdfunders, $1,000 as a funding goal is really not that much. Especially if we're talking about Draw Steel. And we know that pretty shortly up here in December, right, like...I know you and I probably can't wait! I'm so excited for the upcoming crowdfunding for Crack the Sun.
Jon de Nor Yeah, yeah.
Paul Ligorski That's so cool. I can't wait for that, man. So, anyway, $1,000. Not much of a funding goal, but for me, being a first-time-ever person to put my work out like this, that felt like too much. Originally, the goal was going to be $500, and then, through early backing, I was going to basically fund, and I was like, I need to...and then I got a lot of advice, as well, from other folks in the space, who had released successful crowdfunding. And they were like, hey — oh, and I should also say, incredible timing with the community video that Matt Colville put out. And got to see the script being developed live in his Twitch streams. And that was hugely inspirational and valuable for me to be like, okay, don't undersell — which I have a really big problem doing — don't devalue the work by thinking you can reach a broader audience by cranking the price point down. And that's 100% what I was doing. And so if I was honest with myself, like, it needed to be at least a thousand bucks to fund, and the community has responded extremely positively in a way that I did not anticipate. I was literally talking with my graphic designer, a month ago, and she reminded me of this I and I was like, "Dude, it would be so crazy if it hit $3,000, my God! What is happening?!" Like that's impossible. That is impossible. That is not going to happen. And then she was like, "Hey, remember when you said that?"
Jon de Nor (laughter)
Paul Ligorski It's like, what is happening? So, wow is really...that's probably a good button on on my reaction. So yeah. Thank you for your support, and thank you, everyone, who supported the project so far.
Jon de Nor I've managed to sneak in as the first backer on a few of the the crowdfunders, and I suddenly saw Rise Heroes Rise! posting on Bluesky that he was, like, the ninth backer or something, and I'm like, no!
Paul Ligorski No! Alas! I'm so sorry.
Jon de Nor I've registered for the launch, so now I'm already behind!
Paul Ligorski I apologize. That was the thing that I discovered along the way, that early backing is a thing. That even before the crowdfunder goes live, you can share the link with folks. So I shared it with my friends and family, people who obviously are not the audience for this project. But I was like, hey, you know, if you want to support this weird hobby of mine, this weird passion, like, all-consuming thing that my life is all about...you know, they don't understand it. They're like, I don't know what this is, but here you go, buddy. Thanks. Thank you.
Jon de Nor (laughter) I have to apologize for...I don't know what I should call it...calling you out?
Paul Ligorski Not at all.
Jon de Nor Like, where's my invite? (laughter)
Paul Ligorski I'm, you know — okay!
Jon de Nor Yeah, I did so in Bluesky, and it worked because you posted a link (laughter) that I could use!
Paul Ligorski I'll take that feedback. And the next crowdfunder, which I've been thinking about — and this is maybe dangerous territory. So I can talk about it briefly. There's not a lot to share about it, but Shuv [Subharup Roy] — who folks might know as the Red Hand of DM or Tabletop Nonsenseverse, the mastermind behind the Blacksmith's Guild fanzine for Draw Steel — he and I are going to be launching a crowdfunder in the spring.
Jon de Nor Wow. Nice.
Paul Ligorski So that's really exciting. And I'll talk to him, and we'll share the link with you first.
Jon de Nor When Ananam was launching the [Boggits of Kingsmire] crowdfunder, he asked me if I wanted to write a quest for the crowdfunder.
Paul Ligorski Oh, yeah.
Jon de Nor And we ended up talking a bit back and forth, and he tested one of those preview links that you can get for the crowdfunder. And he asked me, does this work? And it did work. And of course, when I was let in...
Paul Ligorski It worked so well!
Jon de Nor That I just backed immediately, and he's texts me back,
Paul Ligorski Guilty as charged. Yes.
Jon de Nor With Cave of the Amber Tears...
Paul Ligorski Yeah, Cave of Amber Tears. Yeah.
Jon de Nor Yes. You have two collaborators. It's just McElroy doing art...?
Paul Ligorski Yes. So the team so far...my graphic designer, her name is Nicole — she is uniquely an outsider to tabletop roleplaying games, has come from corporate background of graphic design, but is hugely in love with all tabletop art. And so comes with a very, very refined aesthetic for graphic design. And it's been really incredible to see her previews because she's like, why is everything in like, these narrow two column formats? Like, that's stupid. Why? And I was like, yeah, I don't know why that is that way either. Maybe because like, page count and everything like that? Probably. Space is limited, everything like that. She's like, we're going to do things different. I was like, all right, dude, rock and roll. That sounds great. I love the the ideas. So she's my graphic designer. And Justin McElroy, who goes by Thoughtographic on Bluesky and Instagram, I saw his work on on Bluesky. I've been following him for a really long time. He has this incredible sketch of Godzilla that I was like, oh my God, that is so cool. And I followed him and just reached out one day when I was developing the idea for doing a print product for Cave of Amber Tears. This was even before I thought I would potentially even go to crowdfunding, and just like, hey, can I commission you for for a piece? He's like, yeah, cool, sounds good, what do you want? And so he started working on what would eventually become the cover for the product.
Jon de Nor Nice. When you launched, you didn't even have any stretch goals listed.
Paul Ligorski Nope.
Jon de Nor It just said "coming soon" or something.
Paul Ligorski Coming soon. Yeah, and that's...so, in my mind, I knew professional cartography would be the stretch goal. Like, the only stretch goal that I definitively had. And I've been talking...so, you and I were, you know, chatting very briefly before we started recording, but an individual who I think I really need to mention, and shout out with a lot of gratitude is my friend Steven Alexander, who's the designer behind Huckleberry, a Weird West RPG whose product just finished crowdfunding. Immensely successful. Finished funding with, like, $57,000. We've been chatting about like, what is the purpose of stretch goals? In the past, I think maybe, maybe as short as five years ago — but definitely, you know, has declined since — is that stretch goals used to incentivize more participation in crowdfunders, and potentially even get people to modify their pledge to be like, cool, I'm going to fund more, like, I'm going to adjust my funding amount, because I want this project to hit that stretch goal. And that doesn't seem to happen anymore.
Jon de Nor Interesting.
Paul Ligorski That people back because they want to be part of the project, but they backed already at the thing they wanted. You know, maybe there's a chance that a person is like, okay, I miscalculated my budget and I have to lower my pledge, or I have to cancel my pledge. Or the opposite, I miscalculated in the good way. And I've got more cash to give you, and it turns out I really want those physical rewards, so I'm going to increase my spend. But it doesn't seem that stretch goals, at least as far as I can tell — and I'm by no means an expert — really influence the trajectory of a crowdfunder. It's kind of something that is included now because it's supposed to be included. But like, for example, Pesto, when he did his kobolds...no stretch goals, right?
Jon de Nor Right. Yeah.
Paul Ligorski Clean, to the point. This is what he's doing. It's it's digital-only, really focused. And I should also shout out him, because his crowdfunding, everything from start to finish was hugely inspirational for me. Just everything about how he ran it and how he structured his pricing and everything like that. Yeah, so I, to your point, I had that in the back of my mind as a stretch goal, for professional cartography. And then because that funding amount was hit so quickly, like, well, let me think about this. And what else could the project benefit from? I was like, oh, cool. Okay, let me take a page out of the Boggits of Kingsmire crowdfunder and throw in a little ancestry. So that's where we're at right now. Only one more stretch goal at $4,000. I'll include this ancestry of the dwarves from the wandering manifold known as the Sleeping Lands. And those are connected, by the way, because you're an early backer, past now. But folks that backed within the first 48 hours, you're going to get this supplementary PDF called the Reliquaries of Orvab the Handless. And Orvab is a long-dead archfey, but his body has been chopped up and distributed, and now resides in these reliquaries. And it's, I'm totally ripping off an idea from Akira. Have you ever read or seen Akira?
Jon de Nor No. Only heard of.
Paul Ligorski Okay, so, then I will not spoil it for you because it should go on that long list that we were talking about that you have of films. But anyway, there's, yeah, I won't say anything else about how it's ripping off Akira, but if you know, you probably know about the reassembly of reliquaries and what they might be able to do to to resurrect an entity.
Jon de Nor In the previous adventures you've written, you've touched on, like in [To] Defy the Stars...
Paul Ligorski Yes!
Jon de Nor ...you go to the timescape. And I mentioned last time we spoke that I read something almost religious, or like belief-related, or faith-related in almost all of your...at least —
Paul Ligorski Yeah! That was such a phenomenal question, by the way. And I have thought about that quite a lot since.
Jon de Nor Oh, interesting.
Paul Ligorski Absolutely. You know, that's really...it really caused me to, not necessarily pause and reflect and like, reexamine my own self, but just think about like, oh, what is this nature of mine to want...to gravitate towards that. So, yes. Yeah, please.
Jon de Nor I was just wondering...this time, it is Norse-inspired. And I have to say the art style of Justin McElroy and the kind of...it almost looks like these wood carvings. I watched through a lot of his portfolio and, my God, there's a lot of good art there. (laughter)
Paul Ligorski Yeah, man. Yeah. It's so intense. I totally know what you mean in terms of, like, it almost looks like wood. Woodcut prints.
Jon de Nor Yeah, yeah.
Paul Ligorski Because of, you know, it looks like...his pen marks look like the carvings that you would then print on, like, a lithograph or something like that. Yeah. So his style is so distinct, and obviously that's, that's really what drew me to it.
Jon de Nor Yeah. It feels very appropriate to the Norse-inspired setting too, in the way that it's a simpler...or not, let's not call it simpler, but...well, I don't know how to describe it. I don't know art words. (laughter) But it feels very fitting to the setting, being inspired by Norse culture and mythology. They go well together.
Paul Ligorski I think of it, it's kind of like, elemental, almost. There's an elemental component that he's able to convey. Certainly in, in the pieces that he's done for me so far, and he'll be doing many more, which is so exciting. And I should say, that's really, like, the great thing about funding so quickly and so well, is that like, cool. That just means the product gets to be even more awesome, like, more art. Yes. Good. It's going to look so cool. Art and Norse myth is a unique thing, right? Because there's not many...well, I guess I should say this. Jackson, Doctor Jackson Crawford, who you might be aware of, and, I think many in the MCDM community are familiar with, especially because Matt Colville interviewed him. He has gone on record to say, you know, that, like all the to call for new art to represent the Norse pantheon and the stories of Norse myth, and I took that to heart, and I was like, cool, let's get some new...let's get some fresh — not necessarily illustrations of the gods, or anything like that, but new individuals coming to the table. But he also really helped me disabuse myself of many of the modern, I think, errors of understanding what is and what is not truly Old Norse. That these symbols, like, vegvísir, you know, those wards, that those — not that they are not Viking, but they are not Old Norse. Because they were illustrated during the Christian period. And so what I really attempted to do was source...any art that is of Viking origin, or that is, rather, of Old Norse origin, I tried to make it as authentic as possible. So, shout out to Project Gelmir, who are...I'm going to get, I'm not going to attempt to pronounce their names, but for folks listening, if they want to check it out, just go to Gelmir.com. And what they do is essentially, they will examine real Old Norse artifacts, carvings, et cetera, and then utilize those periods of design language and then attempt to create digital versions of them. So if you go to the crowdfunding page two, you can see the story headers of of each of the crowdfunder are those...all those motifs are Old Norse. So, yeah, I guess, it's just really important to me to have it feel authentic, and in such a way that is...you know, we've, and Jon, you, being where you are from in the world, I imagine, are deeply familiar with all of this because it's the background — not assuming that it's your individual background, but it is at least the background, the cultural...topography, if you will, of where, you know, you generally reside. And the Viking theme, too, I think is really well-trodden. I was like, I don't want to just bring...I don't want to just do another Viking thing. If I think about, like...you told me I can go on tangents, and we're clearly going on a tangent now. So sorry. We'll loop back in in a second. But if I think about, like, what does Norse myth mean to me? When I really read Norse myth, it's not MCU, like, Thor being silly. It's not Mjolnir. It's weird stuff! It's stuff that doesn't follow logic. And I think what happens so often — oh, man, I have a soapbox, apparently — that, especially in the United States, when we think of Vikings, or the Norse pantheon especially, we try to impose the, like, the dramatic stories of the Roman and Greek pantheon onto the Norse pantheon, right? Where it's like, Hera was mad at Zeus because he, you know, was a philanderer. And Zeus turned into a cow or bull, and you know. But at least there's, there's logic. There's like, this thing happened, and this thing happened, and this thing happened, and it's cool, I can follow that sequence. Norse myth, things don't really work that way. They're weird. Right? Like, in the adventure, there's a demigod. Specifically, his name is Kvasir, the demigod of mead and poetry. And Odin kills him, and, you know, they make him, like, they spit into this jar to create him originally, and then he uses his blood to create the mead of poetry and all this stuff, and it's all weird. And the word I'm looking for really is numinous. Friend of MCDM, and probably people watching your channel also know, of Dael Kingsmill, and she talks about this in...when, how to design a pantheon, like, what are the elements and features that should be essential? And the numinous is really what is translated to me from Norse myth, and that, if anything, is what I've attempted to, like, bring forward in my, like, honoring of Norse myth. Trying to. Right, like, I'm an outsider to that culture. That's not my historical background. Allegedly, there's like, there was 5% DNA for my mom that was like Scandinavian in nature. But what does that even really mean? Nobody knows. So yeah. And either way, I'm an outsider to that culture. So that's what I've attempted to do to...honor. I don't know how we got on that tangent. Sorry. (laughter)
Jon de Nor (laughter) I think it's interesting that you're kind of trying to steer clear of like, the classic Viking stereotypes, let's call it.
Paul Ligorski Yeah. For sure. Absolutely.
Jon de Nor In large part, at least to me, because...(sigh) the problem with a lot of the, let's call it stereotypical Viking imagery that we might know is partly because (laughter) when Norway became an independent nation, yeah, it needed to create its own history. And the Vikings became part of that mythology. That this is where we came from, and we, you know, we view that era with rose tinted glasses and made up a lot of history that's not necessarily very accurate.
Paul Ligorski Right. Honor. Strength. And it's like, yo, slavery was an essential component of the economy of Vikings.
Jon de Nor Exactly.
Paul Ligorski That's not what I wanted to write about, too. That's not what I wanted the adventure to be about. I wanted people to feel this, like, Old Norse element. And for me, like, that's really what captivated me and is inspiring to me. Like, I mean, the runestones, you know, the art from that time, the stories...even the cultural artifacts, like the brooches, and their blades, like, oh, just all that just fascinates me. Yeah. It's so cool.
Jon de Nor You've written adventures, at this point, for a lot of different systems. And one of the questions that's been asked by my patrons is, when you're writing for different systems, do you have a different approach for each system to kind of create the adventure, or are there like a general technique that you apply, and then you tweak it for which kind of system you're writing for?
Paul Ligorski Oh yeah. Okay. Great question. Thank you, patrons of of Jon de Nor. I guess...well, short answer, yes. But I think it's important to acknowledge for me, that when I started writing TTRPG adventures, I didn't know what the heck I was doing. So I didn't know that, hey, this system maybe needs a different approach, because the system is about something different than this other system. And I think probably the best example of that is the adventure I wrote for the Cypher System, because Cypher System — which was almost going to be one of my recommendations, by the way, go play Cypher System, but that's not an official recommendation — is, it can be about a lot of different things, but it's way more about exploration and discovery than it is about combat, and tactical combat especially. It's not a tactical game, you know. It uses the short/near/far distances as opposed to using the grid at all. You could probably, you know, slam a grid into it and try to do it that way. And I've certainly done that, but it's not really what the system is about. So yeah, that totally changes perspective on...yeah, how to design a satisfying adventure. Right? Like, what's going to be the conclusion of a Draw Steel adventure is most likely going to be some sort of combat, right? There's going to be high-stakes combat, because that's what, partly, Draw Steel is about. It's about fighting monsters. And good! I want to write that. That sounds fun. Yeah, Cypher's not about that. I would say if I went back now and wrote a Cypher System adventure, or wrote a different system, I would know a lot more. I've learned a lot about how to write adventures. Obviously, still learning a lot too. But yeah, I would say when I first started out, I was like, I have no idea what I'm doing. And so I took a lot of the lessons that had been baked into me from the Seattle game, and d20 fantasy at large, and was kind of trying to smush them into a different system. And I'd be like, why is this not working? And eventually what I'd learn is, like, oh yeah. Because that game is about these other things, and this game is about this other thing. So yeah, so I really, I guess I have to say, too, like, I really love Draw Steel. Obviously I'm all in on Draw Steel. You know, it's, for me, it's the most captivating TTRPG that I've played in a long time. The art, the stories of the, you know, the lore, and the system itself just is so fun to write and design for. And I think I know...that might be, that might prove to be false. But I think I know what to write for...like, what does a Draw Steel adventure need? I think I know.
Jon de Nor Alright. Okay. One of the questions that I was also asked is whether Draw Steel is easier or harder to design for than the other systems you've written for.
Paul Ligorski Oh, okay. Really curious. I can say, for sure, compared to the Seattle game, Draw Steel's way easier.
Jon de Nor Oh, interesting.
Paul Ligorski So much easier. So much more fun, too. And it's just because everything is presented upfront. I don't want to talk too much about the Seattle game, but things are...convoluted in monster design. What the heck does Challenge Rating actually mean? And it's so finicky. It goes back to a lot of the lessons that I've been, like, gathering from Matt's videos, and the revelations that came from The Elusive Shift, which is so true that, like, okay, cool, if you and I play a game of Draw Steel right now, and I run a game for you, that's a totally different game than if I run Draw Steel for like, five people in person. Which is also a totally different game than if I run it for five people online. And five people that have played Draw Steel, like, ten times before. It's so different. Yeah. Draw Steel — it's just so easy to...well, and, it's just so...I don't know, actually, let me really think about that for a second. When I say easy, I don't mean that it takes no effort. It takes effort to design a monster well, I think. It takes effort to do all those elements, you know, because there are different monster roles. Okay, what is this role about? How can these abilities support and reinforce that fantasy? For example, the hexer monster role? And it's like, okay, this is somebody who's at at range, probably using magic. Okay, cool. So gotta bake that in to the design. But then how can it be interesting too, or the effects? What are the potencies you can involve? What are the unique abilities that this monster has? So it's not necessarily easy, but I've found it's easier because I'm just so inspired. I gotta say, I don't know if that's a satisfying answer to the question. And I apologize to your asker, to the person who came up with the question. I guess I'm grappling with it right now. I don't know necessarily if it is easier or necessarily why, but I think, probably...
Jon de Nor It feels easier.
Paul Ligorski It feels easier. And I think Draw Steel is just generally a really well-designed game. I can say, just, before we move on to the next question, because I kind of...I'm thinking about this...that a game like Mausritter, for which I've written, you know, a small handful of stuff, way easier, literally easier to design for, because there's so fewer rules. And it's meant to be a very open-system game, that it's like, you know, you don't have as many strict boundaries like Draw Steel does. So I think on that, on that note of it, it is easier to design for, but it's not, I will say this, is not as satisfying.
Jon de Nor I was wondering, as someone who's writing some — and, like, a short adventure that's going to be published at some point — whether the fact that there are, that montage tests and negotiations are a prominent part of the rules, alongside combat...combat is, of course, like, the biggest part of the the rules, easily.
Paul Ligorski The star of the show.
Jon de Nor Yeah, yeah, yeah. But is it easier — is it a help that there are other systems to kind of rely on, to kind of bounce off of, when you're writing the adventure, that...okay, I don't want, like, three combats in a row here. But I have these two other systems that I can employ instead without having to kind of reinvent, or invent a completely new subsystem for myself for this adventure.
Paul Ligorski For sure, yeah. Those offer...it's a rich tapestry of options that, that that fit in, and, I don't know, I think it's really fun as well to design negotiations and design montage tests. Those are, in my experience so far, just as fun to design as combats. Yeah, especially when the stakes are high. So you mentioned To Defy the Stars, which is coming out today, in fact. The premise of that quest is that everything is at the high difficulty level. So it was kind of a challenge that I wanted to take on, like, okay, cool, design a really hard combat, design hard montage tests...all the skill tests that are required are at the hard difficulty level. Negotiation, you can't really make harder, per se, because it's always going to be on that sliding scale of interest. I guess you could make it more difficult if the starting interest and starting patience is really, really low. But I didn't want to make it impossible, like, starting interest and patience of zero, you know? Because that would be just, I think, unfun. Oh my gosh, I lost the thread. Montage tests and negotiations! Yes. They're justas...they help, and they're fun, and I think, yeah, the system is better served because it has those elements. But that doesn't necessarily mean that writing an adventure for another system doesn't require you to be creative. And similarly with Draw Steel, even though there are those elements to utilize, it still doesn't mean that...like, you still got to kind of know what you're doing, right? You still have to have a vision in your mind. It still needs to reach a satisfying conclusion. It can't just be, alright, here's a montage test, here's a negotiation, here's a combat. Done. There needs to be stakes. You need to communicate effectively through your writing so that the Director knows what the heck is going on, too. So, yeah, they're helpful, but they're not the be-all, end-all, I guess.
Jon de Nor Right. This is another patron question. Do you see Draw Steel opening for new types of storytelling or tactical play that other systems can't?
Paul Ligorski New types of stories and tactical play that other systems can't...yeah, maybe, I don't know. It's been interesting to see systems get hacked and presented in ways that the original designers did not intend. I'm thinking about one system in particular, the Mothership system, which has been used for a variety of things. So, yeah, maybe. That's an interesting question, and we'll find out together, won't we. But I suppose that...I don't know, I think it's possible that the power roll is utilized for other systems. Or rather, there's like a hack of, of Draw Steel that uses the power roll to tell a different kind of story than is currently being told, as far as I can tell, in Draw Steel games, which is that, you know, cinematic, heroic, fantasy, tactical games. I don't know. Who can say, who can say? I hope so, rather. Maybe that's a better answer: I hope so. Because I...to talk about the Cypher System again for a second, that system, because it's so flexible, has allowed for many different genres to emerge. So they have like a superhero fantasy style for the Cypher System. They have a sci-fantasy version for the Cypher System. They have horror. Because the system itself does not necessarily reinforce any specific kind of fantasy. It's just a mechanical framework through which you can have fun with TTRPGs. And I suppose Draw Steel is the same, that the power roll, that fundamental resolution mechanic, can enable other kinds of stories. But I don't think that the mechanic of Victories and Recoveries and the respite, like, that system within Draw Steel, I think that is explicitly heroic. So I think if you were to do away with that part of the system, then I think you could really tell different kinds of stories that weren't just about heroic stakes.
Jon de Nor I've also received a few questions about encounter design, actually.
Paul Ligorski Okay!
Jon de Nor When you build encounters, do you build them around story beats, or is there a theme you want the encounter to have, or mechanics, or imagery, and they even suggest maybe a Rule of Cool? *(laughter)
Paul Ligorski Oh, interesting. How do I build encounters, I guess, is, like, the heart of the question. Okay, so I just recently saw, are you familiar with Luis Carazo? If you watched EXU: Calamity, he plays a character in that Critical Role series, but he was just interviewed by Brennan Lee Mulligan on his...oh, I forget the name of the little segment, but...Contested Roll or something like that? Where the guest argues one point and then Brennan intentionally, whether he agrees with it or not, argues the opposite point. And so Luis Carazo was talking about Rule of Cool and says — and it's kind of a hot take. He's like, it's lazy.
Jon de Nor I've seen a clip of this! (laughter)
Paul Ligorski Have you seen it? Yeah. It's really, I think, valuable and worth watching. And it's certainly challenging me because I think, generally, as a Director, as a GM, I am totally in favor of Rule of Cool, because I just want to have fun. But when it comes to writing adventures, I don't do Rule of Cool. It's all about utilizing the boundaries and the framework of the system to create something meaningful. And I would say as well that I hate random encounters.
Jon de Nor Okay. Yeah.
Paul Ligorski So that's kind of already an answer to the question. I hate random encounters. I hate it when I'm in a game and the GM is, like, okay, cool, roll. And then that'll determine if you fight something. It's like, I don't want to fight something random. I want it to reinforce the narrative. I want it to reinforce why we're playing, like, what's the conflict. So for that reason, I hate random encounters. And when I design encounters, I don't design random encounters. And it's indeed either about advancing the story or setting a scene. You know, setting a vibe, setting a tone. So there's an early combat encounter in The Cave of Amber Tears with these, like, nightmare-addled frost elves who have gone completely insane. They're probably already insane. That part of Arcadia where they're from, they are highly capricious, and whimsical, and will murder you for accidentally putting your butter knife back in an incorrect fashion. Highly inscrutable etiquette. So they're probably already insane compared to the people that live in Orden, but they're even more insane because they've been experiencing these nightmares for the last two weeks, and they can't make sense of them. And so the first people they encounter, they're like, "Cool, you have to die." It's not random, per se. Like it's hopefully reinforcing what the story is about. But that one clearly is not necessarily driving the narrative forward. It's more about, like, what's the setting? What's the scene? Reinforcing the vibe? But I think my favorite encounters to run and to plan and to design are ones that are really meaningful to the story, where like you learn something about the narrative through this combat. And that the encounter doesn't necessarily end when combat's over, because then it's all, like, the investigation of the aftermath of the battlefield. Like, what clues were dropped, you know, like, what does the villain, you know, have on their person that can, you know, lead to more questions, more riddles to solve? I love that momentum that can be created. And I think Draw Steel really does an incredible job with that, too.
Jon de Nor Have you come up with an encounter or encounter design and then struggled with trying to communicate what your intentions with the encounter is to other Directors? And trying to kind of translate what's in your head to the paper in a way that makes sense to the person reading it later?
Paul Ligorski Have I struggled with that? I don't think so. But I've never spoken with a person who's tried to run my encounters...
Jon de Nor *(laughter)
Paul Ligorski ...and they said one thing or another. I'm sure there's there's always that loss, the translational loss, because I have in my mind a very specific and explicit image when I'm designing stuff. And I'm sure that that's lost. Or rather, I'm sure that there are elements that are lost, you know, when attempting to convey it through a page, right? Like if I was, like, talking to you and walking you through my whole thought process, then I'm sure...but also, like, it's not holy, right? It's not sacred. It's just a game, and it's totally cool. And if the person picking it up is like, alright, cool, I dig this vibe, and this sounds like kind of the story I want to tell, and they get there in their own way, even if it's like, totally not what I had intended...it's all good. Yeah. There's nothing that I hold sacred or divine about, like, "the text must be followed". And I know for me, I totally disregard — when I'm reading adventures, if I don't like something, I'm like, I'm going to change that immediately. I'm very fast and loose. The only time I guess I'm ever careful with that is about balance. Hoping, right, like, theoretically, the design — or rather, hoping the encounter — if we're talking about a combat encounter specifically, my hope is that it's been tested. And so, hey, this person writing this adventure told me that these are the number of people that I'm supposed to have in my party. And if we're talking about Draw Steel, before entering this encounter, this combat encounter, they should have X number of Victories. Or, hopefully, what they've done is they've given me options. Hey, I'm coming into this encounter with four heroes instead of five, and they have one Victory instead of three...what do I do? And I've seen that be the norm in a lot of the third-party design. And it's definitely something I'm including myself, because I want a Director to be able to be modular with it, where it's like, I intended for five people, but one couldn't show up. And it turns out we skipped this part of the adventure, so they're not flush with Victories. Here's...no problem. All good. We've got solutions for you.
Jon de Nor Is there something you do as part of the adventure design where the adventure goes from being design and mechanics into something that's more of a sellable product? Is there is there a a process that the adventure has to go through there, or is it just kind of happen along the way?
Paul Ligorski That's a very interesting and broad question. It's like, how do you design adventures? (laughter) And I think there's no one answer. So last time we chatted, we talked a little bit about the community of games that I run called Tales from the Tavern. And so that, for example, the To Defy the Stars adventure came about because I was like, man, I want to run some high level Draw Steel. Because I've been running Draw Steel for a while now, even before the official release in July. And it was all low-level. It was all echelon one. I was like, I want to see...because I have yet to play in a high-echelon game. But I was like, I wonder what it's like to run a high-echelon game. I was like, guys, hey, the only people that should sign up for this game are people that are familiar with Draw Steel. I'm not doing a tutorial. You're going to bring your own characters. We're not doing pre gens. It's going to be level seven and everything's going to be really hard. So like, only sign up if that sounds like fun. And people signed up. They were like, yeah, this sounds really fun. Level seven, let's go. And I was like, great, okay, what do I, let's keep on changing the beat. And I was like, man, XXAXX, let's make it XXAXX-related! And timescape-y, and spacefaring! That just emerged because I had an idea, and I ran it, and it was really fun. High-level Draw Steel combat is no joke. Yeah, you really have to...this isn't intended to be an advice video, I guess, but, like, you really have to play it as it lays, because I would see some of these, like...and I designed all the monsters, but I was using the math presented in the Monsters book, and I was like, man, these are devastating, punishing numbers, especially for the elites that I designed. But you got to...you got to play it the way it lays because Draw Steel will...well, for me, it surprised me a lot. I learned a lot from that encounter, by the way. I just got to say, Bloodbound Bands? Bullshit.
Jon de Nor (laughter)
Paul Ligorski BS! No! (sigh) They were my bane for that encounter. Yeah, like, the heroes...it was no big deal. They burned through a lot of Recoveries, but, the Bloodbound Bands allowed them to have this collective pool of Recoveries that they could just, like, tap into. So those are now banned at my table, if you are in echelon three. Or, only two heroes can have them. And that's it. Because I told everyone in the party, like, hey, you can have a third-echelon trinket, or up to third-echelon trinket and a leveled treasure. And there were, like, sweet, cha-ching, Bloodbound Bands, baby, let's go. And, yeah, proved to be a very smooth encounter for them. Anyway, back to your pertinent question. How do I design encounters, like, what is the idea for them? Sometimes, it just comes that way, where it's like, I want to run an adventure for my friends, and, wow, this is, this idea...hey, it's maybe kind of cool. It's actually really cool. And I think it's viable. Let's drill down on it. Let's make it official. And then sometimes it's...hmm...I guess that's actually the only way I've ever designed — (laughter) — like, for Draw Steel and, like, real adventures, that's the only way that I've ever really designed them, is that, I wanted to run this idea, a set of sessions for my friends, and it turned into a product. Yeah, that's, so far, that's 100% of the way that it's developed. Similar with Cave of Amber Tears. Cave of Amber Tears actually started out as a 5e product.
Jon de Nor Oh!
Paul Ligorski That I was going to release for fifth edition [D&D]. And the OGL crisis occurred, and I was like, (brake noise) step on the brakes. No, no, no, no, no. Put this one back into the kiln. And then, not shortly after, MCDM was like, hey, we're doing a thing. I was like, okay, cool, maybe this can be a Draw Steel adventure. And I think it was actually better served by Draw Steel then fifth edition. There's a negotiation that occurs pretty early on in the adventure that was very challenging for me to...so, to a point of your earlier question, you know, that translation distance between the person writing and the Director running? There was no way I could wrap my head around this one encounter, but I felt like it was really important and made sense. And basically the heroes are confronted with the village guard at the entrance to the burial mound, and no one's supposed to go in the burial mound, and the village guard is supposed to, like, prevent you from going in...and in testing for the Seattle game, it all ended up being that the heroes just killed the guards. And that gameplay is kind of incentivized, I think. Often, you know, the murderhobo style, whatever, that's still fun. But I was like, it's not...that's not what this encounter should be about. It should be about negotiating with your kin, with your kinfolk. And so I was like, when negotiation emerged, I was like, this is so perfect for this encounter. So, yeah. So I guess it's really about, if anything, it's about inspiration. It's about what inspires me, what I'm excited to run for my friends. And so far, that's been pretty good. That's worked so far.
Jon de Nor We are way too quickly running out of time.
Paul Ligorski Oh my gosh.
Jon de Nor I always ask my guests to bring some kind of recommendation, and now I'm eager to hear what you've brought this time.
Paul Ligorski Thank you, Jon. I can't believe it. Wow. That flew by really fast. So I struggled to think of these recommendations. I thought at first to, like, recommend some media, but I thought — and little did I know that we would talk about inspiration so much this, you know, in this conversation. But what I wanted to recommend were the zines and products, TTRPG products, that inspired me to try and create something. So the first one that I'm going to recommend people check out is something called Wormskin. It was done by Gavin Norman. Folks might know Gavin Norman because of Necrotic Gnome and Dolmenwood, or maybe even Old School Essentials, which is, you know, this OSR game, retroclone, of, you know, of fame. And it's like, proto-Dolmenwood. But there's there's a handful of zines, and they're super faerie-related, but it's like dark faerie. For folks that know the story, Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell, it's like weird magic and faerie. So that's my number one recommendation is to read Wormskin. It's a very unique kind of fantasy, though. The second recommendation I have is the adventure designer Jacob Fleming. He wrote a number of adventures for Old School Essentials. They also — I think some of them were written and released as well for the Seattle game, but specifically the one I'm thinking of is called In the Shadow of Tower Silveraxe. And he did all the art for it. It's super tight. The presentation is just terrific, and really fun to read as well. That is an adventure, by the way. Wormskin is not an adventure. It's kind of like Arcadia, in that it's material for Directors. But it's player-facing and Director-facing content. And then last but not least, Cloud Empress. I talked about this, I think, on our last show.
Jon de Nor It sounds vaguely familiar. Yeah.
Paul Ligorski Yeah. And Cloud Empress is a hack of Mothership. So to that question, you know, using the system to tell different stories, Cloud Empress could not be more different from Mothership. Mothership is sci-fi horror. This is sci-fantasy...melancholy? More than horror? It's extremely beautiful and bleak and rich at the same time. The art is...I can't really say too much about it because I want...I really would actually like...of all the three recommendations, that's the one that I'd recommend the most. It. And it was hugely inspirational for me because it was the work of one person and this one group of artists, who collaborated and created something and in my opinion, quite special and quite beautiful. It's, well, very different from Draw Steel. The kinds of stories you're going to tell in Cloud Empress are very different than Draw Steel. It's not a level-based game. You know, you're not bringing on new abilities. It's not about fighting monsters. There is violent conflicts, there's violent encounters. But that's not really what it's about. So I'll just, I'll leave it there. Those are three TTRPG products that were hugely inspirational for me, each one containing their own little nugget of beauty.
Jon de Nor Thank you so much for coming on again, Paul.
Paul Ligorski Thanks for having me on again. We did what Ananam requested we do!
Jon de Nor Yes! (laughter)
Paul Ligorski He demanded, in no —
Both — uncertain terms —
Paul Ligorski Jinx! That you interview me again, and we have...we've appeased him, haven't we.
Jon de Nor I felt like this is the best time to even bring you on with the crowdfunder going this well and everything, I...
Paul Ligorski Thank you so much.
Jon de Nor Yeah, it felt like, a moment.
Paul Ligorski Indeed. Yeah. And we got, this is great. We got philosophical on this one. Which I enjoy.
Jon de Nor Yeah. So again, thank you so much for coming on. And, best of luck with your crowdfunder.
Paul Ligorski Thank you so much.
Outro
Thanks so much for comin on, Paul. It was a pleasure. So he's not just running a crowdfunder now, but he's also brewing on something in the near future! Paul is truly an adventure power house.
If you're listening to this when it drops, there's still a couple of days left until the crowdfunder closes. You can still get the adventure in PDF and print editions. Pledges start at $12.
I want to thank Seth Lang, FoxTrick, Antan Karmola, and The Dice Society for submitting questions for Paul.
If you want to be featured on Goblin Points, or know of someone else who should be, leave a comment on YouTube or Spotify, or send me an e-mail on tips@goblinpoints.com.
Links to everything, including this script can be found in the show notes, and on goblinpoints.com.
If you want to support my work, you can become a Patreon supporter. As a paying member you can submit questions for upcoming guests. You also get access to premium features on Stawl. Stawl is digital tool set for playing and running Draw Steel: digital hero sheets, looking up monsters, or read the core rules. Go to Stawl.app. S-T-A-W-L-dot-app.
Next episode is on the 5th. That'll be the news roundup for November.
See you next time. Snakkes.